Choyoołʼįįhí bichʼįʼ yáshtiʼ:Stephen G. Brown/archive2

Please confirm or add

Wikiibíídiiya:Wikiibíídiiya beehazʼą́ąnii. Template is Template:Policy. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 23:14, 1 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Sounds pretty good, but I think we may be painting ourselves into a corner. Some things that may be considered in the public domain should be okay. External links (such as a link to KTNN 660 or to Diné College) could be considered advertising or spam by some people, but sometimes they may be important information that we should offer. Maybe it would be better to submit controversial subjects and items to a community vote, which would require a 2/3 majority for approval in order to pass. Just an idea.

Another thing is that our articles are entirely in Navajo. This limits them to those who know the language and who have legitimate interest in the culture. I would think that articles on traditional culture written in Navajo should be a positive thing, especially for future generations who may still have the language but have forgotten the traditions. —Stephen 00:07, 2 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

I would rather go by what Anthony was hinting at - maybe the translation was bad. Secret/sacred/forbidden knowledge... I think (or pretty much know) one of the reasons why hardly anybody is contributing here is a fear of abuse and white people starting a new manifest destiny-mission. They see that sort of stuff on English wikipedia (let's call a spade a spade) with whites disrespecting everything that's in any way sacred to them. English wikipedia's "we're not censored" won't really work here. As long as there is no firm stance against it, we cannot hope to get anyone to contribute. Suspicion will remain, though, and I don't think it's gonna fade too soon... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 00:23, 2 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Yes, there is that. It is the same with a lot of tribes. The Mapudungun of Chile filed suit against Microsoft for developing a version of Windows in their language. The Taos of Taos Pueblo try hard to keep their language secret from outsiders. I would like to be able to collect and store as much information as possible in the Navajo language, but not to the extent that it would drive contributors away. I think we have to be careful how we state the policy, because policies can have unexpected and far-reaching consequences and can be almost impossible to change later on. —Stephen 01:06, 2 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

It seems we don't yet have an article on the Native American flute, although R. Carlos Nakai, who is half Navajo, is the most famous player of this instrument in the world. If our policy says that any traditions of the Navajo may not be written about, we presumably would not be able to cover this subject, which is actually an aspect of Navajo culture that might be one of the best known in North America and around the world. (There also doesn't seem to be an article on Kokopelli, a well known figure that can be found nearly everywhere in the Southwest, on reservation and off.) I agree with the moderate course, covering the basic aspects of the culture but avoiding the discussion of knowledge that is absolutely secret. One of the native speakers here stated that religious matters should be avoided, except those that are already widely known and have been published on the Internet, as well as presumably in books by people like ethnomusicologist David McAllester or novelist Tony Hillerman. 24.29.228.33 01:23, 2 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Yes, we have to be careful and have a balanced policy. It is a very common strategy when one culture is being swamped by another to become secretive and try to conceal the language and culture, but this strategy virtually always ends badly. In the end, the culture and the language are bound together. When the Aztecs and Mayans kept their writing secret from the Spaniards, everybody including the Aztecs and Mayans eventually lost the knowledge of their own writing. Many tribes have tried to keep their ways secret, and now that the native people no long can speak their old language, they do not remember the culture, rites and knowledge that were traditionally passed down in the language.

We have to respect the wishes of most of the people, but I think it is important to preserve as much as possible in the Navajo language. —Stephen 01:50, 2 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Well, I think those concerned are referring to the religion/spiritual ways/ceremonies rather than the language or writing system itself

By the way, I recommend this very good story about preservation of the Hopi language among youth who weren't learning it, from a National Public Radio story that aired earlier this week: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122018480 24.29.228.33 02:00, 2 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

We are talking about Diné binahaghá dóó Diné biʼooʼoolʼį́į́ł. I can simply erase the English version. The flute-example is definitely not part of it, nor is most o what the English words "tradition" or "culture" include. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 02:17, 2 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

I think we should run it by Anthony at least. As it stands, I think it is open to a range of interpretations that could lead to trouble between those who interprete it in different ways. —Stephen 02:37, 2 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

I did leave a message on his talkpage, at the same time I started this string. By the way, I don't have any strong feelings about the "spam"-part, I just added that 'cause I thought it would make sense. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 02:40, 2 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Right. I’m against spam and advertising as well, of course, but I worry how some people might interprete the rule. It is difficult to write good common sense into a formal regulation. —Stephen 02:58, 2 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

This is Anthony's comment. I think we just need to work on a footnote that defines "spam" in English. "Óʼoolkąąh" seems fairly clear to me as it refers to billboard-style "for sale" commercials (~something's caused to be demanded/bought), not links or hints. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 03:52, 2 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

If Anthony is happy with the wording, then I would say it is okay. —Stephen 03:57, 2 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Same here; he's "the boss." Besides -- right now, there's only the two of us with the ability to nuke stuff (Node won't be back, I would assume), and I will definitely consult you before taking any actions. Involuntarily earned Kudos to the IP-editor above; the question about Bigfoot reminded me about writing a policy. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 04:05, 2 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

semi-protected your page+talkpage (preventive)

See recent changes. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 02:50, 4 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I’ve been meaning to do that myself but I keep forgetting. —Stephen 02:56, 4 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, well, somebody just showed up a few minutes ago with the name Seb az86557 and started vandalizing... it's not a global or unified account (yet), but if you see him/her show up somewhere else, let me know. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 03:05, 4 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

I had the same thing happen to me once. EddieSegoura, a well-known vandal and loon on Wikipedia, created socks with my name on a lot of Wikipedias and Wiktionaries that I did not have accounts on (before we had global accounts) and vandalized important pages, and left pointers back to my real page on English Wiktionary. He pulled a lot of other tricks, too. We wouldn’t let him invent new words and make pages for them, and we deleted them and protected the deleted pages, so he would create new versions with Cyrillic letters or no-width spaces that looked like his new words. It took us a while to clean up his mess. He was banned over two years ago and I recently came upon one of his creations that had escaped detection. —Stephen 03:18, 4 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Does the name "Jéské Couriano" ring a bell with you (that was his vandalism, see link above)?Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 03:24, 4 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

That would be en:User:Jéské Couriano. It’s probably somebody trying to make rhe real Couriano look bad. —Stephen 03:28, 4 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

(Funny... I notice I just autoblocked myself (cascading) because the guy presumably used my IP-address... hmm... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 03:43, 4 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)) nevermind, only close to mine Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 03:58, 4 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

bg-colors

I changed the background-color for anything but article-space to a light blue (as they have on en.wiki)... I had a headache last night after staring at all that bright white flickering for too long. (Affects monobook-skin only) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 02:12, 5 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to me. We spend a lot of hours staring at these screens. —Stephen 02:18, 5 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

We now operate on a simplified Diyogí (background/experimental - idea shamelessly taken from Arabic wiki...). Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 03:12, 7 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Diyogí makes sense. —Stephen 03:13, 7 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Díidiʼígííshąʼ?

T'ááłáhági át'éego baa yinísht'į́:Candidates for speedy deletion ?? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 04:19, 7 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

I’ve never heard of Corbin, but then I’m a little out of touch with all the new music crazes. If somebody who speaks Navajo will like to write the article, that would be okay, but I don’t think most Navajo care for that kind of music. Delete until we get a request from a Navajo reader. —Stephen 04:30, 7 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

hmm..

I don't like this at all... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 06:42, 7 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Should not be a problem. Each wiki has the right to opt in or opt out. See Proposal. —Stephen 08:05, 7 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

hah. just like any wiki has the right to vote for admins. they never say anywhere how many votes it takes to get a "valid" opt-out. I'm suspecting it'll be "you guys need at least 20 votes to say no - overruled"... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 08:38, 7 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Well, they say it is mainly intended for the smaller projects and minority languages that have very small communities and few or no active sysops. Among this group, it is not unusual that we can only muster three votes. —Stephen 10:26, 7 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

I see you voted "no". (Good) I added the question why people from un-affected wikis get to vote on this (they might flip over the apartheid-comparison, but whatever). This proposal would be nice if was for wikis w/o any active sysops. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 03:25, 8 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

ta-da!

Do you see what I see? (above, second tab from left) (e.g. "is this working?") Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 23:56, 8 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it works. It now says "bichʼįʼ baa yáshtiʼ nisin". Good work. By the way, the anon who compiled the list on Wiktionary with eshchį́įgo, etc., says he got the words from here. I don’t know what process he used to capture the words, but I suspect that eshchį́įgo is just the end of some longer word. If he was copying by double-clicking, the glottal mark delimits highlighting just like a space. —Stephen 12:00, 9 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Probably. And he's asking more questions, once again close to breaking policy. He should realize we're not a dictionary, esp. not for people whom we don't know e.g. IP. I left a note on his talkpage. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 12:14, 9 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

I can understand his curiosity. It’s an interesting language and very little information is available on it without taking out a second mortgage. I’m not opposed to answering a few simple questions, but, as you point out, we’re not a dictionary and we don’t want to get bogged down with that kind of thing. —Stephen 12:18, 9 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

I answered his first few questions, but now he comes up with "is this really true? do you have sources? Proof? Where is it in print?"... I mean, when he's questioning my peculiar creations, maybe that's fine, but now he's picking on what Anthony writes... that ain't cool. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 12:25, 9 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I have gotten those kind of questions before. I speak a number of other languages and occasionally some newby wants documented proof that писать is Russian for "write". A question like that might be appropriate for a native speaker of the language in question in the case of a strange word whose existance or meaning is debatable, but if someone who does not speak the language wants proof that the word "write" exists, he should invest in a dictionary.

I think he’s trying to figure out how a tribal language could have words for African animals and so on, or items of modern technology. I’ve had people question Old English words for things like atomic bomb and X-ray machine...they don’t realize that, like Latin, Old English has been revived as a language and people create new words in it to describe modern things, just as the Latin-language newspaper put out by the Vatican can talk about such things in Latin. —Stephen 12:39, 9 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

well, that somewhat puts in into perspective for me. I had the notion he was only asking along the lines of "how can those savages know about this?" (I've heard that numerous times from white people when I lived on the rez... and then there was this Anglo-girl in one of my classes who insisted on having everything explained to her in English and just would not buy the notion that certain concepts cannot easily be transferred... it was driving me (more than) nuts) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 12:45, 9 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Right. That’s why English has so many foreign words in it. Many languages cannot readily adopt words from foreign languages. Arabic and Hebrew have a special structure that makes adopting foreign words very difficult, and monosyllabic languages such as Chinese obviously can’t easily accept polysyllabic words from languages such as ours. Most of the American Indian languages have a long, long history of translating new concepts rather than adopting foreign words, but most of that was between the hundreds of American Indian languages, where a great deal of the culture was shared and familiar, at least with neighboring tribes. If a food or tradition is unfamiliar, then it is hard to translate it, which is why English, a Germanic language, owes over 80% of its words to non-Germanic languages. For us, it’s easier to say "kimono" and "sushi" than to translate the concepts to familiar Germanic words. —Stephen 13:02, 9 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

CfD

Another thought I had... it seems the global sysop-thing will inevitably pass (big frickin' surprise...). I'm thinking of simply abandoning the Speedy-deletion cat and putying everything into a different cat called "considered for deletion"... that way, no-one will swoop in and nuke stuff... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 13:38, 9 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

That may be a good idea. It’s difficult to imagine that a global sysop would try to do anything like that, since he would be at a loss with the language, but just in case. On the other hand, I think we might leave it as it is. We will see anything that has been deleted and we can restore it if we want to, for proper consideration. If premature deletions become a problem, it will be grounds for a complaint. I doubt that these sysops will delete or mess with anything except nonsense made the interwiki vandal that they are concerned with. I don’t think they will do anything that is not the result of vandalism. —Stephen 13:52, 9 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Good point. (...you disregard the thought of what could become a new vandal-trick: tag pages for deletion in the hope that a global sysop w/o a clue about the language will go in and delete them :P... that could become a new sport) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 13:57, 9 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

hastiin łį́į́ʼ bideeʼłáaʼii

Your assessment of the situation please. We can't keep all pages on semi for eternity. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 02:21, 11 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

No. The important thing is to ensure that the vandal sees no results for his actions. Vandals want to see how they’ve changed things and left their marks. The pages should be deleted and protected without a word. If he can get a rise out of you, it turns him on. We just have to block him, revert him, but not give him the satisfaction of seeing that he has any effect. If he can’t get to you, he’ll look for another, more vulnerable victim. —Stephen 02:27, 11 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Alright. (I promised to consult with you) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 02:31, 11 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

flute-stuff

regarding the anons nagging about "Native American flute", it would be most appropriate (maybe just to make a point) to have an entry "flute" and another one "White-people flute"... :P Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 08:51, 11 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

For whites there are different ones...piccolo, recorder (I don’t know what the horizontal one is called...horizontal flute?). But it would be good to have the Native American one, since there is an article for that on English Wikipedia. —Stephen 08:57, 11 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Yea, yea, I know that... it was ":P" Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 09:00, 11 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Naabeehó

Could you glance over this one? --- I'd like to list it as "Nizhónígo ályaa"... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 10:07, 15 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

I’ve looked it over and cannot find anything wrong. It looks perfect. —Stephen 11:05, 15 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

OK. By the way, there's something awefullly dumb about User:CommonsDelinker. It doesn't simply take out an image -- it removes the caption as well. The way Anthony wrote some of the articles, it could effectively erase everything... (example: Kǫʼ naʼałbąąsii)... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 11:28, 15 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

We will have to watch it. When User:CommonsDelinker removes an image, we have to check to make sure no text was lost. —Stephen 13:48, 15 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

sp-pages

Haaléít'éégoo "square miles" dóó "square feet" Dinék'ejígoo ájiiłįįh? Nááná ła' éí "Survey" dóó "Engineering" Áłdó'? Nanabaah 16:10, 3 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

I do not know. We have left square miles, etc., in English so far. You might ask Seb az86556 or Arizona86002...if there is a way to say them in Diné, they probably will know. —Stephen 05:52, 5 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

ta-da! :P Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 12:35, 5 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

(Anthony uses the feet-thingie every now and then (see tsin yilátah ayání), I'm just too lazy to type it out very time... maybe I should... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 12:59, 5 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC))

---

Could you review these ad delete if resolved:

Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 10:29, 16 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

No longer needed. Deleted. —Stephen 10:59, 17 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Seems like the titleblacklist and range-blocking works somewhat. I'm gonna start lifting the protection on random pages over the next days... (>log out and try creating a page or username that contains "seb"... ;)... -> would you like to have "steph" blacklisted as well?) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 13:18, 17 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I think it is time to do that. Wouldn’t hurt to blacklist steph. —Stephen 13:28, 17 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

additional button/tab on "akʼeʼeeshchínígíí"

We now have an additional button/tab on Special:Contributions for the next possible vandal attack: "nátʼą́ąjigo (tʼáá áłtso)" -- that's mass rollback and will revert all listed edits at once (en:Wikipedia:Rollback_feature#Mass_rollbacks). Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 18:53, 17 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Nizhǫ́... —Stephen 20:05, 17 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Naaltsoos ádinígíí/Wanted pages

Wanted pages was disabled in October... I've been surfing around on meta for a while trying to a find a place to request an update -- any ideas whom we could possibly ask? (this bureaucracy is kinda nuts...) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 13:43, 19 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

I left a request at Help. Maybe they will point us in the right direction at least. —Stephen 05:04, 20 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

I don’t suppose we need a file with this: SpecialWantedpages.php? —Stephen 10:10, 20 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Saw it. I was assuming that's for initial system set-up... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 10:18, 20 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

---

Tó nitéél nitságoʼ atságáá <- don't link this yet, prolly needs a spellcheck, but i'm @work and my dictionary is @ home... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 19:58, 20 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Okay. —Stephen 19:59, 20 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

I'm lost on this one for now... I would guess "...ntsaago atsʼághááh" for "~ drift apart while being huge" or something like that, but not sure (I'd have to hear it)... of course, a dictionary produced in the 60's doesn't have "tsunami" in it... (What did we call a tsunami before it was a tsunami, anyways? I never heard anyone use that word before the 90's... "storm surge"?) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 23:32, 20 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

We used to call it a tidal wave or seismic sea wave. The Japanese word tsu-nami means literally harbor wave. —Stephen 23:39, 20 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Ah, yes. Well... let's link it as it is for now. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 23:44, 20 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Yáʼátʼééh, Stephen G. Brown/archive2! Seb az86556 nichʼįʼ haneʼ ánáyiidlaa Hello, Stephen G. Brown/archive2 - You have an answer from Seb az86556

bot-blocking

When I block bots it means they are operating without a flag and no indication of its owner. I'm gonna clarify this with meta. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 19:23, 21 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

buttons

I've added some edit-buttons. You should have the regular stuff for everyone and 4 additional ones (starting with a smiley-face) for inserting templates.

smiley:	{{subst:Yáʼátʼééh}}
"stop"-hand:	{{block|<duration>|<reason>}}
"IP":	{{iponly}}
"verboten-thingie":	{{indefblock}}

Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 00:28, 24 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Oh, yeah, and I almost forgot: "steph" now blacklisted Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 03:53, 24 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for blacklisting steph. I don’t see the new buttons anywhere. Do I need something in my monobook file? —Stephen 09:07, 24 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Hm... strange... above the edit-window after you click "łahgo áshłééh"? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 18:24, 24 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

...

Oh, there. Are all 26 of those buttons new? I have not noticed them before. Anyway, I see the three you are talking about at the end. Thanks. —Stephen 18:53, 24 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

that deutschland-thingie...

it just occurred to me that Manu created Bééshbichʼahí... I'm gonna move to Béésh Bichʼahii Bikéyah... (where the redirect makes sense, I'll leave it) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 22:09, 24 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Okay. We also have a little contradiction between Náʼhatʼéʼiiʼtsoh bikéyah (náʼhatʼéʼiiʼ) and Náʼhatʼéʼiitsoh (náʼhatʼéʼii). —Stephen 22:17, 24 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Oh -- I had to stare at it for a few seconds... you're darn good w/ those little things... actually, I'm gonna have to check the entire spelling... I'm suspecting Nahatʼéʼii...Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 22:21, 24 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Whoops... not even a tone on "e": Nahatʼeʼii. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 22:26, 24 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

learned something new today...

I just found out that not all Hexopodae are insects... darn, now what? I can't think of anything other than "chʼosh bijáád hastání" for insects... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 19:58, 25 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

This is a brand new development, probably in just the past two or three years at most. I’m sure that 99% of people will continue to consider springtails and such other six-legged bugs to be insects. Science can change directions on a dime, but language is much more stable and resistent to change. Like tomatoes now being considered a fruit, but to most people they will always be a vegetable. In the case of chʼosh bijáád hastání, it is more stable than English insect, because it still includes springtails and the rest. I think when scientists have to distinguish these things so finely, which natural languages never do, we can let English draw on its new Greek terms, and Navajo geneticists can resort to something like chʼosh bijáád hastání-Collembolaígíí. —Stephen 20:59, 25 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

OK. I'll just leave it as is it. I, for one, never learned about it in school (that was in the 80s). Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 21:16, 25 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

one of'em

I'm assuming you want the singular-form as an entry @wiktionary: ałtʼoʼígíí biyęęzhii yiłchíhígíí (monotreme)

oh, and this one's the "topboner" :P -> (bi)kááʼ + tsʼin + í

Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 22:57, 27 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Yes. I knew daʼałtʼoʼ was plural, but I was pretty sure that just dropping daʼ wasn’t all that was needed to make the singular. Ah, (bi)kááʼ + tsʼin + í, bone on it. —Stephen 00:54, 28 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

---

on 2nd though, "Seems-like-leaf" sounds better than "Leaf-they-walk":

Atʼąąʼ naaldeehii --> Atʼąąʼ nahalinii

Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 00:25, 30 Yas Niłtʼees 2010 (UTC)

Weird account...

I think we need to keep an eye on this: Okawix notice sender.

Has been messing around on tpi-wiki for the past days, trying to run some tests or whatever the heck it is. Now goes on creating accounts on various wikis. I'm guessing this is in preparation for a spam-bot.

An account named en:User:Okawix was blocked for spamming on en-wiki last year. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 04:45, 3 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

We’ll keep an eye on it, but I think it will be okay. It appears to be connected to http://www.okawix.com/ and allows users to download the entire Wikipedia onto their computers for browsing offline. This "notice sender" notifies Okawix when the Wikipedia has been updated so that a newly updated copy can be offered. —Stephen 06:42, 3 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

Hello,

you are absolutely right, I am a member of the Okawix team and that account will behave like you guessed. I will provide below a few precisions about it :

• this "notice sender" is an experiment in progress.
  • The script is based on the pywikipedia framework (known for it's interwiki script) to ensure a minimum of bugs. I tested it on a low-activity wiki (tpiwiki) to make sure there wouldn't be problems with it.
  • Though I created the accounts on most wikis of the Wikimedia Foundation, it is currently only configured to work on the ~20 biggest Wikipedias, and it's scope will be gradually expanded to other wikis (or maybe won't) depending on how theses wiki's community will react about it (but I can enable it for this wiki right now if you wish it to be). An opt-in/opt-out system will be made available at some point.
  • the "wiki archiver" (dump) system run 24H/24, and our main developper estimates that a new dump will be available for a given wiki every 3 or 4 months. Bot status is usually given to accounts making many edits, and as that account will likely only make 3 or 4 edits per year on a given wiki, it didn't seem appropriate to ask a bot status for that.
• I asked my team-mates about en:User:Okawix and it seems to be unrelated to us. From what I've seen, it was banned for "spam" after one edit - the creation of an "okawix" article which was deleted right after. The blocking is understandable as the account and article shared the same name, but a direct "indefinite block" after only one edit feels a bit heavy-handed to me.

Have a nice day :)

Okawix notice sender 09:54, 8 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Sounds like it could be a useful project. —Stephen 20:40, 8 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

???

???. Bot and user in one account... and messing up the interwikis? Blocked. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 21:54, 7 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

I don’t understand bots well, but there appears to be a bot named Choyoołʼįįhí:HerculeBot and its operator named Choyoołʼįįhí:Hercule, connected in some way with Choyoołʼįįhí:Crochet.david. I gather that HerculeBot makes some use of the interwiki addresses listed in Hercule. —Stephen 22:05, 7 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

I found that, but this isn't the way to go. I asked about this on meta. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 22:12, 7 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

Answer from meta: "Anyone can run a bot on their normal account." I will therefore treat it as a normal user-edit and keep up the block for vandalism until some sorta explanation follows. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 22:38, 7 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it looks like his bot routine, or whatever they call the mechanism that runs one, has an error in it. —Stephen 22:41, 7 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

I thought that I saw a problem that the bot was producing, but I may have been too hasty. Now I don’t see it. What I thought was an error (placing "wikipedia" in front of link addresses) seems to be okay. The links work correctly. —Stephen 22:53, 7 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

Userbox

Now has a variable called "note". Only appears when used, otherwise looks as before. Advantage is, if we decide it looks weird, I can change it across all boxes by changing the "mother-template". Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 23:56, 8 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

If you wanna put [[:en:Chechen_language|Chechen]] (or whatever) in there, that works as well. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 00:02, 9 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

Pichilemu

Hi. I don't have autoconfirmed status here. Can you move the following code to Pichilemu ?

--MisterWiki 16:28, 9 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

Done. —Stephen 16:40, 9 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

This guy is indeffed @ en. No problem with him contributing, but IP block exempt might not be cool. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 17:02, 9 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

---

(Sorry, my curiosity has me checking @ wiktionary again...) You should get one of those barnstars for your patience w/ the anon(s). Just tell'em there are no adjectives in Navajo. I, at least, cannot think of any... That'll probably result in either bewilderment or more arguing, but it's as simple as that. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 07:06, 10 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

We have the same problem with Ojibwe. In Ojibwe there are no adjectives, but they have verbal prefixes called preverbs that work like our adjective. Gichi- is the preverb for big/great, so gichigami means Lake Superior (great lake). The problem we have on Wiktionary is that the format is very standardized, and every entry has to have a part-of-speech header, but only the headers that we use for English are allowed (because most of the admins only know about the closely related European languages, which have the same parts of speech as English). It makes it almost impossible to enter words in languages like the Amerindian languages, and the other admins are incapable of conceiving of a language that does not work like English. —Stephen 08:57, 10 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

That's almost... retarded. (I couldn't get into the actual structure of Navajo before I worked through the only verb-based book on the market.) I'm beginning to understand why most white people say it's "impossible to learn" -- seems like it has a lot to do with their own stubbornness or inflexibility... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 09:23, 10 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

(Didn't we try that same stunt in the Middle Ages when some of the "educated" tried to impose Latin grammar onto English? :P )

Pretty much. That’s why they still say that we’re not supposed to split infinitives (as in to boldly go), and why we’re not supposed to let sentences end in a preposition (as in that’s something I won’t put up with). These are good English idioms. —Stephen 10:03, 10 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

January's Stats

We should ask someone to do some volunteer-vandalizing every month... we have two new contributors :P (and the most contributors ever).

Apart from that, everything else is on the raise again, after the drop due to my article-creation-frenzy last year... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 03:28, 11 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

The stats look pretty good. More contributors is also a good sign, even if they are not very active. —Stephen 18:00, 12 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

---

I see... I mean I'm sorta used the fact that people sent me vandal-notes and have now decided to even block me for obscure bullshit-reasons -- but you? Man... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 01:37, 16 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

I guess he was having a bad-hair day or something. I can’t imagine what he was looking at when he thought I was vandalizing a page. —Stephen 01:44, 16 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

77.177.38.167

Even if he find's it in English, I'd say it's clear spam/propaganda or whatnot... "...stellen wir Ihnen den schönen Inselnorden vor"? "Die Türkei wird Zypern nicht für die EU opfern"? "Würden Sie die Türkei in die EU aufnehmen?" I don't think we need this. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 14:48, 19 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

strange...

Though it is somewhat odd, the improved design of the front page seems to lend this whole endeavor an aura of "authority"... we have the second question in a month. I went through all the archives, and no-one ever asked anything before... strange... talk of marketing or whatever... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 04:38, 23 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it takes time for people to hear about it and more time for them to go to the trouble of looking for us, and even more before they are ready to speak up. I think it’s always a good idea to leave at least a couple of messages and replies, even if they are old, on these important discussion pages so that people can see that such questions are welcomed, and generally how to format them. —Stephen 15:31, 23 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

---

Iichʼąh (Fall-into-fire) >> Iichʼąhii (the "fire-faller")

Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 01:22, 28 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

Makes sense, and a good way to distinguish between them and butterflies. Many languages don’t distinguish butterflies and moths well, but use the same word for both (e.g., Russian and Spanish). —Stephen 23:21, 28 Atsá Biyáázh 2010 (UTC)

Does the "chʼ" in iichʼąhii derive from kǫʼ? Or is chʼąh a verb from a different root? —Stephen 05:49, 8 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

There actually is a verb iishchʼąh (1st pers sg (I)) which means "fall-into-fire" (more often metaphorically than literally it seems), "seizure," "throw fits". Stem is *Øchʼąh. I doubt it's derived directly from kǫʼ... if you wanna make an entry somewhere, the fire-falling def should probably go last. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 06:45, 8 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

By the way, I don't know how you list those over at wiktionary, but if you list stems, including the classifier is essential; for example, the stem for yáshtiʼ is *(ł)tiʼ, otherwise no-one can correctly guess the 3rd pers yáłtiʼ or know why the hell there's an ł popping up... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 07:02, 8 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

We include an etymology section whenever possible, with as much detail as we can make out. Usually I can only get the larger words, not the individual prefixes. As with any wiki, it is a work in progress, and what is omitted or muddled at present can one day be added or fixed by someone who knows more. —Stephen 13:55, 8 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

K'ee'doolchool

I moved the {{delete}}-template, and salted it. That should make it more difficult for future drive-by-style delete-tag-vandals. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 14:46, 1 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

Good idea. —Stephen 17:01, 1 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

atah yisdzoh/atah daasdzoh

Since you're good at spotting the minor screw-ups, here's what's going on: "atah yisdzoh/atah daasdzoh" should be preceded by the enclitic -jiʼ (-ígíí cannot take additional enclitics and must appear as -íjiʼ). I hope I found all of them. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 08:48, 5 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

I did several more. You should check them over. —Stephen 16:57, 7 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! Does not seem to work well with Latin... becomes somewhat wordy... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 17:18, 7 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

Jááłánii

I'm becoming a taxonomy-expert here... I just found out there are important differences between centipedes and millipedes, but I don't think this warrants a separate entry in wiktionary or anywhere else; I made it a dab and gave the two some explaining "()" in the title... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 22:18, 13 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

Update: I think I pulled an "over-precise" stunt here... considering that "Jááłánii" seems to include only these two kinds, the category "Chʼosh bijáád łání" is too "wordy"... I'm simply gonna rename it (> Jááłánii, and that's it)... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 00:08, 20 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Jááłánii already means that anyway. —Stephen 06:01, 20 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

considering...

What do you think of pages for years/centuries, like this? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 20:08, 14 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

Some dates such as that are really important and it’s good to have pages to explain them. —Stephen 01:32, 15 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

ChChange!

So I built a new toy.

You can override the way all namespaces are displayed by choosing "ChChange!" under Bee Naʼanishí in your Special:Preferences. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 09:44, 20 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

I’m trying it, but I’m not sure where to look for the differences. So far everything looks the same. —Stephen 20:41, 20 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

well, on this page, you have the {{"talk"-page}}-template... your userpage should say Choyoołʼįįhí:Stephen_G._Brown ... (unfortunately with underscores) is that what you see? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 21:59, 20 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it says Choyoołʼįįhí:Stephen_G._Brown. Very nice. On my screen, the underscore looks good, too. —Stephen 07:24, 21 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

Tsiitsʼiin łichíʼii

I have no idea what crazy twitch gave me the idea that this was a fire-ant; Anthony's picture clearly showed a Jerusalem cricket... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 22:26, 25 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

Ah. I wouldn’t have guessed it since I don’t know the meaning of tsiitsʼiin. Seems to be the same as tsiisʼin. —Stephen 23:18, 26 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

yepp, skull (head-bone). So it's the head-bone red, or head-bone-big red, or the bug head-boner. I also went ahead some time ago and gave the modern orthography at en:Jerusalem cricket - they still had something from an 1852-source (go figure)... it looks really weird; apparently, the missionaries used to spell C or S interchangeably for both TS and CH... and R for W (maybe the guy was going for German-style orthography... Navajo W before o and a is pretty close to GH ~[^wʁ]-[^wɣ]) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 23:24, 26 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

Here's why I'm messing around with those gradients....

Switch to Vector-skin as default announced for April this year. I'm trying to make the templates and most of the other stuff work for both skins... kinda tricky. If you switch to Vector-skin and find anything that looks completely out of place, let me know. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 09:49, 28 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

Vector skin does look a little weird. It will take some getting used to. For me, the tabs at the top of my screen, Choyoołʼįįhí binaaltsoos, bichʼįʼ yáshtiʼ nisin, nisin (something missing from this tab), łahgo áshłééh, do not have a top line, so they don’t look like tabs anymore. There is only an extremely faint bottom line and two extremely faint vertical half-lines before and after each. The other lines around the page and the lines separating the navbox section are all very fine and faint, and generally the upper line is missing. —Stephen 13:05, 28 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

Oh, it seems that the search box, normally in the navbar to the left, is repositioned at the upper right, and where there used to be eight tabs, there are now only 3-1/2. Four of the missing tabs are under a little arrow. I don’t recognize the nisin tab, but when I click on it, it says "Are you sure you want to navigate away from this page?". —Stephen 13:17, 28 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

Everyting you describe is hardwired, and there's no way to change it. The tab should say "yíníshtaʼ nisin" ("I want to read it", on en.wiki it simply says "read")... no idea why they threw it in there... it takes you back to the page to, well, read it (duh!). The warning comes up when you've made any changes in the edit-window and try to leave it w/o saving.

It only says "nisin" for you? I'll check...

In any case, if you find anything that in plain sight and still in English, tell me. Oddly enough, some of the messages for vector skin are separate from all the others... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 13:50, 28 Wóózhchʼį́į́d 2010 (UTC)

oh glorious day

it's either due to the upcoming switch to vector-skin or somebody had mercy: the namespaces have been implemented!

Unfortunately, this has messed up some of the links (but curiously enough, not all of them)... specifically, the language-templates you made now link into the red: The namespace for category is now spelled with the glottal (finally!) instead of an apostrophe. So... needs to be updated.

Wherever it says T'ááłáhági át'éego it must be changed to Tʼááłáhági átʼéego. I could need some help...

I'll go through all the templates I made, and see to it that the scripts will still work. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 07:59, 9 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

PS: that "talk"-page template is now obsolete :)

I can fix the language templates, but it’s a big job. —Stephen 10:34, 9 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

Would you like some help? I can fix some things with my bot. I did a single test edit here. Let me know, Malafaya 19:06, 9 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

I took the liberty to correct the templates. Regards, Malafaya 19:14, 9 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I think your bot could fix the language templates, such as Bee álnééhí:User hu-1. Each has five instances of T'ááłáhági át'éego, which must be changed to Tʼááłáhági átʼéego. —Stephen 19:25, 9 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

It's working on it as we speak. Unfortunately, my normal user account is not working with the bot so I had to use ("illegally") the bot account (global bot) so it's changes won't be visible. Malafaya 19:27, 9 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

Template:Fair-use is locked and I couldn't update it. You will have to do it yourself. Only the Category namespace changed or are there others I should be looking for? Malafaya 19:32, 9 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

I fixed Template:Fair-use. I have never used a bot, so I don’t know exactly how they work. If a bot cannot change a protected page, that’s a bit of a problem, because quite a few of the template pages are protected.

There are two items which I believe need to be changed universally: E'elyaaígíí to Eʼelyaaígíí (it means image), and [[T'ááłáhági át'éego: to [[Tʼááłáhági átʼéego: (it means category). —Stephen 19:44, 9 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

I've added the Image namespace counterparts to the replacements to be made. Basically, the bot is a normal user. If a page is fully protected, only a sysop can edit it. The only way for a bot to edit that page is if it is also a sysop itself. If that is a serious problem, you could think of granting temporary adminship to the bot. Malafaya 19:51, 9 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

If I were a 'crat here, I would grant the bot admin privileges, but I don’t have that power. But these two changes, to category and image, will fix the vast majority of the pages that are not protected. —Stephen 19:55, 9 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

I think so too. If you can easily find those pages which the bot could not update, it shouldn't take that long to fix. Cheers, Malafaya 19:59, 9 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

I will do that tonight. You've been of great help. Thank you so much! Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 21:03, 9 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

Everything is done: the bot worked on Templates, Images, Users and Articles. It didn't touch any Talk pages (should they be also updated, let me know). The following pages were not updated because they are protected:

• Choyoołʼįįhí:67.68.33.98
• Wikiibíídiiya:Customized rollover-tooltips for Wikiibíídiiya
• Eʼelyaaígíí:NVFA.png
• Eʼelyaaígíí:NVFA big.svg
• Eʼelyaaígíí:NVcolorfade.png
• Eʼelyaaígíí:NVcolorfade2.png
• Eʼelyaaígíí:Navajo rug pattern.png

Best regards, Malafaya 00:06, 10 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

Corrected those on the list above. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 00:36, 10 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

I went through most of the templates and pages. I think we're done :D!!! I will now feel much more comfortable mentioning Wikiibíídiiya - no more "molestation"-pages. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 01:22, 10 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it went pretty smoothly, especially with the help of the bot. Everything looks good to me. —Stephen 06:23, 10 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

One more things on the bot's topic: the Pywikipediabot's interwiki bot is not yet translated to Navajo. Currently, it falls back to Spanish (check VolkovBot's contributions). Would you like to do the honor? The words that require translating follow:

'en': (u'robot ', u'Adding', u'Removing', u'Modifying'),

The 4 words are appended to each other when needed, with language codes in between. The only fixed word is 'robot' which appears on every comment. All others depend on what the bot does, 'Adding' being the most common one. After I commit your translations, the interwiki bots will be adding Navajo comments instead of Spanish. Cool, hu? ;) Best, Malafaya 13:47, 10 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

We've been asked about this before; the problem is word-order. Instead of "robot ABCing XYZ" it would have to say "XYZ robot ABCing" or at least "robot XYZ ABCing" -- I never found out if that is even possible. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 21:17, 10 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

The way it's done, I'm afraid it's always "robot ABCing XYZ". In most languages, that is solved by the colon between the verb and the languages (ie, "Adding: xx, yy"). Doesn't this work for Navajo? Malafaya 21:55, 10 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

A verb's object is and must be part of the verb. "Adding" cannot stand alone, it would have no meaning (it would be is weird as walking up to a stranger on the street and saying "you"). If the order cannot be changed, I'd have to pull some awkward stunt like "This page was automatically changed by a bot (+): XYZ"

'nv': (u'botígíí díí naaltsoos tʼáá bíniʼ łahgo áyiilaa ', u'(+)', u'(-)', u'(+/-)'),

I see you're also adding the featured article link. That'd be u'(+naaltsoos nizhónígo ályaaígíí)'

Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 22:16, 10 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

The message for interwikis looks a bit long but let's see what gives as bot operators start pulling the updates. As for the featured articles message, it also takes the target article (on the foreign wiki) in the message (as [[%s:%s]]):

'en': u'Bot: [[%s:%s]] is a featured article',

'es': u'Bot: Enlace a artículo destacado para: [[%s:%s]]',

Would you care to review it? Thanks, Malafaya 22:36, 10 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

(Seb, I tried to leave you a msg on your talk page but I get an error:

You do not have permission to edit this page, for the following reason:

The title "Choinish'įįhí baa yinísht'į́:Seb az86556" has been banned from creation.

It matches the following blacklist entry: .*[sśŝşšЅ$][eéêëēĕėęěёẽếềểễệ][bBΒБВ฿].*

Malafaya 22:42, 10 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

ooooo, thanks for pointing that out... I still have to change that link. Fixed (it tried to write into the old namespace)

And, good, at least the "featured article" thing has a movable variable, so here goes:

'nv': u'Naaltsoos [[%s:%s]] kʼad nizhónígo ályaa',

Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 22:59, 10 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

Ásáí Bizaad

so somebody added a short word-list in Arabic; that's a great idea, but I'm afraid no-one will be able to read it if it's not transcribed. I seem to remember you know Arabic. Would it be possible for you to approximate either English or Navajo spelling for these in "()" ? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 02:31, 12 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

Okay. —Stephen 02:33, 12 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

Great. also... does أسود mean black or African? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 02:34, 12 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

It means black (color or person). —Stephen 02:37, 12 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Stephen and Seb. Black is no African, it is colour :-) Kmoksy 04:49, 12 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

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chy:Talk:A'kêstséašé'šenovôtse... ??... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 00:35, 14 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

old source

I found this. The spelling is really messed up (published 1910), and it's a guessing-game at times, but I could decipher Dlǫ́ʼátah néʼéshjaaʼ (given as dlútqă' næěshjā). Maybe there's more... I'm trying to say them out aloud several times to figure out what the author meant. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 05:23, 23 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

That’s an excellent resource. It’s always tricky learning to decipher the old spellings of Amerindian languages. I not long ago found this old Ojibwe grammar, also an excellent book. But the old-timey spelling gives me a headache. For instance, woman in modern Ojibwe orthography is ikwe, but in old spelling was equa (modern Ojibwe e is always a long ee, like Navajo long ee, and it was represented in writing as a, like the indefinite article a; modern Ojibwe i was written e in the old orthography, e being pronounced like the name of the letter e). Modern Ojibwe debwe (he speaks the truth), old spelling dabwa (hence the spelling of Ojibwa, pronounced Ojibway). Once you learn the basic correspondences, you can make out the old spellings pretty well.

I read the first 50 or so pages of the Navajo Ethnological Dictionary and along the way I could figure out some of the old spellings, such as dinétqa for dinétah. In this book, the old orthography does not seem so extreme as compared to my old Ojibwe book. But these are wonderful resources and, since they are so old, they are in the public domain. —Stephen 07:59, 23 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

The book mentions yei tso (yéʼiitsoh) and gives some of the Athabaskan legends of how they came to be here. Very interesting. —Stephen 08:09, 23 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

(ec) Well... you seem to be the better "orthographist" (I know there's no such title, I just made that up or you)... maybe you could try wrapping your mind around this gem: nǽěshjā băʼnă'ái (it's another owl, and it's supposed to say "owl that sit(s) side by side". For crying out loud, none of the many phrases for "side by side" that I know come even close to this weird construct...) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 08:11, 23 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

The vowels are always the hardest. I can get the first word, but so far not the second. Since Navajo until recently was not written and there are few written records of old texts or words, some words and phrases that were used only a hundred years ago are no longer understood and have been lost to the language. Anthony might be able to get băʼnă'ái, but it could also be a word that is no longer understood or used. —Stephen 08:34, 23 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

Q

have you by chance taken any action regarding this list and its bot? it keeps including vandals and banned users. (apart from the fact it's completely useless...) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 04:56, 28 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I contacted the owner at w:es:Usuario Discusión:Emijrp. He says that he believes he has fixed the bug and that in the future the banned user should no longer appear. —Stephen 12:22, 28 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

OK. Let's try that on more time (I'll lift protection for the pages). If he keeps going, I'll re-protect (sysop) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 00:26, 29 Tʼą́ą́chil 2010 (UTC)

(Also -- I think this whole deal is now fixed to the extend where [Wikiibíídiiya:Ádaaniidí, yáʼátʼééh!|"we apologize for this place being such a mess"] isn't needed anymore)

default-choices

regarding this edit of mine: I believe the default choice for an unmodified term (without any qualifiers) should be the North American animal wherever possible. So if you find something where the European variety is given, we should probably change it. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 01:12, 6 Tʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

Right. —Stephen 02:17, 6 Tʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

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we are worth linking to... :P //Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 15:26, 10 Tʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

Very nice. I didn’t think to look for them on Facebook before. —Stephen 12:50, 11 Tʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

revdel

we have revdel. what do you think of taking out the banned users' revisions? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 20:51, 18 Tʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

You mean where reverted edits are irretrievably deleted from the memory? Most reverts don’t need to have this done. I think it’s only useful where someone has been slandered or something really nasty has been written, and which we don’t don’t it to be part of the record. If somebody just writes "Kilroy was here", that isn’t worth the bother, and it may be useful to keep POV pushing in the historical record. So in some instances, such as slander, we should use it, but usually not. —Stephen 20:59, 18 Tʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

OH ok. I mean this guy. And it's not oversight, it's simply hidden from the public. Any admin can still view it. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 21:02, 18 Tʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

Yes, anything that that guy did is completely worthless. If you want to revdel it, it’s fine with me. —Stephen 21:09, 18 Tʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

OK. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 21:10, 18 Tʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

en:DYK

This will be on the font page of en:wiki in the Did you know...?-section in about 12 hours. I included an "easteregg-link" to Atsá. There might be a few more visitors, including vandals. Just a heads-up. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 00:46, 20 Tʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. —Stephen 01:10, 20 Tʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

Bee álnééhí:User bar

Hi Stephen! Could you please add the following interwikis to this template (because it´s edit protected I can´t edit it...): bar:Vorlage:User bar, fr:Modèle:Utilisateur bar, nap:Template:User bar, nl:Sjabloon:Gebruiker bar, pms:Stamp:User bar? Thanking you in anticipation. Chaddy 21:29, 27 Tʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

Done. —Stephen 23:00, 27 Tʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

June 15 coming up

We need to renew our adminship. I guess they'll insist on some sort of post again. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 05:44, 29 Tʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

Seems like it was only last month. —Stephen 06:49, 29 Tʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

True... anyways, sign it if you will >> Wikiibíídiiya:Áłah náʼádleehdi#Adminship (change the wording if you know a better way to put it). They'lll probably want this to be up for a week or two before we go to meta. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 17:09, 31 Tʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

So I filled out the form... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 09:21, 13 Yaʼiishjááshchilí 2010 (UTC)

Nizhónígo íinilyaa. —Stephen 09:51, 13 Yaʼiishjááshchilí 2010 (UTC)

Extended 'til Dec 14 :) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 04:15, 15 Yaʼiishjááshchilí 2010 (UTC)

---

This remaining summary defeated the entire purpose of deleting the delete-template (an IP found the target), so hid the summary. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 01:33, 4 Yaʼiishjááshchilí 2010 (UTC)

"art"

Here you see where it's getting hairy. The whole idea of "art" doesn't exist in Navajo... I looked it up on enwiki, and the claim this is merely a useless-boredom-pastime-thing cannot be expressed. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 08:10, 21 Yaʼiishjááshchilí 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the English version had apparently been machine-translated from some other language. I tried to turn it into understandable English, but since I don’t have the original to go from, it was difficult. I think I put that it had no purpose, but clearly someone can only be guessing about the purpose of an artifact from 20,000 years ago and what the carver was thinking about. Before I got to it, it was completely incomprehensible. I did not take the time to go through the history to see who entered it. If we knew that, maybe we could get the original text. —Stephen 08:34, 21 Yaʼiishjááshchilí 2010 (UTC)

Oh -- I didn't even check who the last editor was. In any case, the concept of "art" is completely alien to the Navajo language. One can paint, draw lines, play music, and whatnot -- but that's simply life :) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 08:46, 21 Yaʼiishjááshchilí 2010 (UTC)

stats

Seems like the guy who does these was on vacation for a while -- a two-month-update in one go. The best thing is that the percentage of articles that actually hold some content (over 0.5K) is now higher than ever before (21%). Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 23:41, 22 Yaʼiishjááshchilí 2010 (UTC)

All of it looks very good. Comparing with the other pedias, I notice that we keep moving up the ladder. Now we’re 181st of 272 (in number of articles), having recently passed Karachay-Balkar, and we’re breathing down the necks of the Guaraní (27 articles behind them). That mysterious property known as depth has been continuously rising for us as well, now at 151. Only eight of the pedias with at least 1000 articles have a greater depth than ours. —Stephen 17:03, 23 Yaʼiishjááshchilí 2010 (UTC)

ǪǪǫǫʼǪǪʼǫǫ

Does bold-nasal-O look odd on your screen in titles like Naʼashǫ́ʼii and Naʼastsʼǫǫsí? I've been trying to fix this for a while... I am under the impression that at least the machines I use default to a different font... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 01:40, 24 Yaʼiishjááshchilí 2010 (UTC)

Yes, most of the letters are in a Sans Serif face like Ariel, but bold ǫ is in a Serif like Times Roman. —Stephen 02:40, 24 Yaʼiishjááshchilí 2010 (UTC)

One strange thing that I notice: the ǫ in the title of Naʼashǫ́ʼii looks normal for me (like Ariel), while the two in the title of Naʼastsʼǫǫsí are odd (like Times Roman). When I played around with it, I found that the glottal stop preceding the ǫ’s in Naʼastsʼǫǫsí caused them to display wrongly. If I remove the glottal stop, the ǫ’s revert to ariel. I tried all the other letters, but Ǫ and ǫ, immediately preceded by ʼ (ǪǪǫǫʼǪǪʼǫǫ), are the only two letters affected this way. Adding a tone mark cancels the effect: ǪǪǫǫʼǪ́Ǫʼǫǫ́. Weird. —Stephen 07:20, 24 Yaʼiishjááshchilí 2010 (UTC)

It apparently depends on what fonts you have installed. For me, bold-nasal-o always looks different. The only font that displays everything consistently is DejaVu Sans. I have put it into my vector.css and will see what happens when I look at it on other machines that do not have the font. If there's no conflict, I will probably put it into the general vector.css after the test. So after the switch to vector-skin, all users should see it correctly if DejaVu Sans is on the computer.

by the way: Thoughts on this? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 12:14, 27 Yaʼiishjááshchilí 2010 (UTC)

I’ll have to install DejaVu Sans. Looks like it is available at http://sourceforge.net/projects/dejavu/ . As for Michael Jackson, no one has ever added anything to the page, so it doesn’t seem to generate much interest. Most wikis will want to have a page for him because he is so popular everywhere, but I don’t know that the Navajo like that kind of music. Navajo music is completely different. I think most Navajo would be more interested in Johnny Cash than Michael Jackson. —Stephen 13:55, 27 Yaʼiishjááshchilí 2010 (UTC)

OK - the DejaVu Sans-pick in the .css didn't cause any display-problems on machines that didn't have it installed. I wrote it into the vector.css (Also wrote the new logo into the vectorskin already) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 00:05, 29 Yaʼiishjááshchilí 2010 (UTC)

Yaa shił hózhǫ́. —Stephen 02:55, 29 Yaʼiishjááshchilí 2010 (UTC)

New source

I guessed correctly! :PChoyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 20:53, 29 Yaʼiishjááshchilí 2010 (UTC)

I thought it made perfect sense. —Stephen 22:18, 29 Yaʼiishjááshchilí 2010 (UTC)

too cool...

Read Jéíʼádįįh and take a guess: hatsʼíhyaa (think German :P)... I guess this goes here... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 05:08, 4 Yaʼiishjáástsoh 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. Gesundheit. Maybe en:sneeze? —Stephen 04:32, 5 Yaʼiishjáástsoh 2010 (UTC)

Actually, sneeze (verb) would apparently be hatsʼíhyaa ní (he says/makes the sound of achoo), so it's definitely an onomatopoeia. I'm curious to see whether Anthony meant to write about the "en:Common cold"... While we're at it, ayáo is ouch... didn't believe it until I heard some goofball bump into a chair. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 05:37, 5 Yaʼiishjáástsoh 2010 (UTC)

I think it’s also appropriate for TB, because that’s how it is spread, by coughing, sneezing, and spitting. It’s an airborne infection. —Stephen 06:03, 5 Yaʼiishjáástsoh 2010 (UTC)

policy-stuff

So we have the first case of a global sysop that has been indefinitely blocked for vandalism and socking elsewhere. I have brought up the issue at meta, and they are discussing the consequences. If they do not decide that such people will have their rights withdrawn automatically, I would like to consider a local policy for this wiki that says indef-blocked global sysops will be blocked here as well. I don't think it's a smart idea to let someone loose on a small wiki when that someone has completely effed up elsewhere - but I want to consult with you first (maybe I am too concerned/over-reacting). Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 17:01, 11 Yaʼiishjáástsoh 2010 (UTC)

Do you mean that a global sysop has been indef blocked on only one project, but has been allowed so far to continue as a global sysop on other pedias? That’s hard to believe, there must be some extenuating circumstances. Generally speaking, I think if a sysop is blocked for vandalism elsewhere, he has no business here, but then I also don’t think he should continue as a global sysop at all. The only excuse that comes to mind is if the block was uncalled for, but then a block like that should be reversed. As to socks, I believe that occasionally there are good reasons to have a sock or two, but then the identity must be announced publicly at the start. Otherwise, I can’t see how a sock would ever be acceptable, and having one strikes me as unethical. Global sysops who are unethical should be blocked indefinitely everywhere, especially here. It would be interesting to see what reasons they have for blocking him for vandalism and socking in one project, while allowing him to keep his powers in other projects. —Stephen 22:24, 11 Yaʼiishjáástsoh 2010 (UTC)

I see we're on the same page. We should wait for the outcome of that... debate. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 10:59, 12 Yaʼiishjáástsoh 2010 (UTC)

Ta-Da!

wow... (it seems those guys are from the Navajo Language Academy...) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 18:56, 21 Yaʼiishjáástsoh 2010 (UTC)

They just keep popping up... I guess this is what we were both kinda hoping for when we came here, yaʼ? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 20:17, 21 Yaʼiishjáástsoh 2010 (UTC)

Yes. The edits look very good. Hope they keep it up. —Stephen 06:59, 22 Yaʼiishjáástsoh 2010 (UTC)

...and those guys spell dineʼé instead of dinéʼiʼ... I felt like the odd goofball, now I'm vindicated :P Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 18:40, 22 Yaʼiishjáástsoh 2010 (UTC)

That’s me, too. I know dineʼé and wasn’t sure if dinéʼiʼ had a little different meaning or was just a synonym that I was not used to seeing. —Stephen 22:28, 22 Yaʼiishjáástsoh 2010 (UTC)

Pruning...

I think we can afford some pruning by now. (List of victims) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 13:32, 29 Yaʼiishjáástsoh 2010 (UTC)

If you believe they are incorrect, then by all means. They would only be useful if the Navajo name corresponds to the English name. Otherwise, no value. —Stephen 16:32, 29 Yaʼiishjáástsoh 2010 (UTC)

My point is that there is no content, and I don't think I'm gonna go through all of the counties to fill them with templated population-figures... I'm barely working my way through the cities and towns. This just doesn't look good. If someone comes up with content in the future, I'm not opposed to re-creating them. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 16:46, 29 Yaʼiishjáástsoh 2010 (UTC)

Well, no one will see them unless they are specifically looking for them, in which case just supplying the Navajo name with links to the county descriptions in the other Wikipedias seems to be valuable information that is otherwise virtually impossible to find. I would prefer if there was a little content, but having no content doesn’t really bother me as long as the page name and interwikis are right. If it’s important, I could probably add a line to each of them just so they would not be empty. I just feel that the Navajo name along with the interwikis is valuable. —Stephen 16:57, 29 Yaʼiishjáástsoh 2010 (UTC)

How about something like I added to Dziłditłʼoii Bił Hahoodzo, Beeʼeldííl Dahsinil Bił Hahoodzo and the others just so they won’t be empty? Now they have a bit of content and a link to another page. —Stephen 17:39, 29 Yaʼiishjáástsoh 2010 (UTC)

OK. I concede we might not be "grown-up enough" yet (< tongue-in-cheek). Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 18:12, 29 Yaʼiishjáástsoh 2010 (UTC)

owl-mystery 2

After a long time, here's my best guess: bíńdáhii.... bí^{[against it(loc.)]} -ńdá^{[3rd person of niidá]} -h^[ligature] -ii^{[static nominalizer]}

I'll just go for that one. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 18:20, 4 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsʼózí 2010 (UTC)

I can see how that could be transcribed as bă-nă-ái. It just highlights the shortcomings of the early attempts to write Navajo. —Stephen 20:35, 4 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsʼózí 2010 (UTC)

wikt

occasionally stalking you on wiktionary... goné naaltsoos... 51 góneʼ = 51st... page is simply naaltsoos :) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 07:59, 8 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsʼózí 2010 (UTC)

Ah, I was thinking of góneʼ, "inside". Long day. —Stephen 08:05, 8 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsʼózí 2010 (UTC)

??? - :)

Sǫʼ Naalgeedí Gohwééh -- Seriously?? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 19:50, 13 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsʼózí 2010 (UTC)

That’s what I have heard. Does it it seem odd? —Stephen 21:28, 13 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsʼózí 2010 (UTC)

No -- it's awesome... didn't even know there was a Navajo name in use. Oddly enough, I always thought it referred to en:The Star Money (Star-bucks), until I now read something about a character from Moby Dick. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 21:35, 13 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsʼózí 2010 (UTC)

you were right...

we actually have a link to a freakin' county now... just because they operate Bluff Airport. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 12:05, 29 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsʼózí 2010 (UTC)

Great. I was sure it would be useful someday. —Stephen 16:15, 29 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsʼózí 2010 (UTC)

Vector

we're now on vector-skin by default. I re-arranged the sidebar/menu because it now apparently kills the first header (whatever that header is) for logged-out readers by default, and I do want "anáʼálwoʼ" to be visible. It wouldn't make much sense otherwise. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 21:37, 1 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

I hope Vector looks better on other people’s monitors than it does on mine. On my screen it looks like crap. I’ve switch back to Monobook. —Stephen 23:06, 1 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

Anything specific you don't like about nv.wiki (e.g. the parts I can change) or is it vector in general? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 23:39, 1 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

There is a wide font with really odd letter spacing that makes things hard to read, but mostly it’s the buttons and links that have no borders, but just float on a white background and it’s difficult to tell where one ends and another begins, either horizontally or vertically. Plus all the tabs are in strange places, and tabs that I use all the time are half hidden, while tabs I never need are prominent. It’s been the problem with Vector all along and it’s just the way the skin was designed. I don’t know why anybody would prefer it over Monobook. —Stephen 00:31, 2 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

Yeah. The font can be changed via .css, but everything else is pretty much set. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 00:37, 2 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

---

By the way, here (wikt) you were off-track: "ił" in the examples you listed is "shił/nił/bił" in its prefixless form (cf. bigaan/agaan). Yepp, that kinda stuff does exist. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 01:03, 2 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

The individual syllables really need to be added and defined, but I don’t have a source for them. —Stephen 01:47, 2 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

Sǫʼ łóóʼ

Tʼáá íiyisíí doo "łóóʼ" ádaatʼée da. -- If "Łóóʼtsoh" is listed as bidił sidoi, then "sǫʼ łóóʼ" should be chʼosh, I'd say... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 21:15, 25 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

This is nuts... or maybe "łóóʼ bitsʼin ádaadinígíí"? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 21:28, 25 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

Alright... time for a new navbox: "bitsʼin ádaadinígíí". That's the only way it could make sense. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 21:37, 25 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

Marine creature without flesh? Makes sense. —Stephen 22:12, 25 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

rather, "bone-less", the literal meaning of "general invertebrates"; I'll leave the bone-less fish for en:Cephalopod. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 03:27, 26 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

Hang on...

I think I need a biology-review... does "invertebrate" mean bone-less or spine-less? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 05:56, 28 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

It means spineless, but I can’t think of any invertibrate that has bones. They seem to have a choice between nothing at all (worms, jellyfish) or some form of exoskeleton (insects, clams, snails). I can’t think of any animal that has bones but no backbone. —Stephen 20:32, 29 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

Hmm... I will change it nonetheless, to be more precise; on wikitionary, you could give it as alternates. íígháán = spine (possessive: bíígháán). Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 04:28, 30 Biniʼantʼą́ą́tsoh 2010 (UTC)

Hm..

I don't think anyone would remotely guess what "maʼdya bikéyah" could possibly be... even the few who have advanced knowledge of geography will make up an English-based "Hángewii"... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 07:49, 2 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Rubic's cube might ring a bell... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 08:28, 2 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I wondered about that. I didn’t understand why there was a glottal stop in maʼdyaa, but especially why the unfamiliar Hungarian word would be adopted over the English word. I suppose the language name should be Hángewii bizaad or Hángewii dineʼé bizaad. —Stephen 09:50, 2 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I'd go for the latter. I went to bed yesterday before I saw that new creation; meanwhile, I've decided to finally work through the plant-pages (even though plants are rather boring to me...) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 10:24, 2 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

time

What's been bugging me for almost a year now is that the time-zone shows Europe (UTC) here; I think it should changed to US +364708−1084111 America/Shiprock (fortunately, we're dealing w/ one time zone only) -- I just don't know where to file that darn request, how many forms I need to fill out, and what kind of arms I'd have to kiss. If you have the time in the near future, can I send you on a mission? :) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 20:45, 3 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Also, I've been thinking about "tsehégod" -- the word implies that a tree has been felled and is now dead. I don't think that's what we want for "stub". I wrote "ndeesgai nahalin" ("resembles a sprout/shoot"). Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 02:47, 4 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I could try to find out where it could be done. For "stub", how about something like "baa haʼooldeeʼ" (undertaken), "dideesbąs" (start rolling it along), or "deeztʼiʼę́ę" (it had its beginning)? —Stephen 06:02, 4 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Hmm... "baa haʼooldeeʼ" sounds like multiple people are presently and actively doing something; it doesn't sound like a state of being. I'm skeptical about using "rolling" metaphorically, and forms ending in -ę́ę are usually part of a narrative when telling a story, something like "at that time back then" or "the one I mentioned earlier." I'll need to think about that some more... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 16:00, 4 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

so...

I'm not a botanist... but... why does the page Tsáʼásziʼ say Yucca and all the pictures are of Agaves? At least en:Agave americana and en:Agave utahensis are called "noodah" (to my knowledge... :S... or somethin'...) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 15:46, 7 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Yucca is a genus of Agave. I imagine that they were put together this way because many people who are not botanists tend to put the two together. I think more people would guess that another name for the century plant was yucca and would not even think of agave. —Stephen 17:23, 7 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

I went over it again; it seems that the difference between tsáʼásziʼ and noodah doesn't even match with yucca vs. agave. So I guess I'll move the page to Tsáʼásziʼ dóó Noodah and link it to the Agavaceae. -- also, I'll try to sort the gallery and kick out anything that doesn't exist locally. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 16:32, 8 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

hah...

Éíshąʼ? Bilagáana tsin deiłchozhíísh łeh? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 10:04, 10 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I think he is British. Of course, no one eats trees, but some words in some languages can represent both the whole and the part, like cherry can be a fruit, a kind of wood, or a tree. I don’t think there are any lemon trees in Diné bikéyah, so chʼil łitsooí dikʼǫ́zhígíí means the fruit. If somebody saw a lemon tree somewhere, I’m not sure if it would be necessary to use tsin or if chʼil would be sufficient. —Stephen 17:30, 11 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

<sarcasm>I like that you pick up on humor</sarcasm>... if you one really insisted, it would have to be the whole long deal +bitsin.

By the way, as I told the guy before, I don't think chʼałdą́ą́ʼ daadánígíí is an acceptable redirect... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 18:31, 11 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

If not chʼałdą́ą́ʼ daadánígíí, then what do people call asparagus? Just chʼałdą́ą́ʼ? —Stephen 18:37, 11 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Either that or Jádí nátʼoh - both of them are re-interpretations from the original word; I am somewhat stubborn in insisting on the original meaning at the main article. Maybe I shouldn't have made the "daadánígíí"-part in the first line bold. Just like nowadays, people will call any spinach, waaʼ, apparently. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 18:43, 11 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

and yeah... I slipped Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 18:46, 11 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Ahh. That makes it a bit more complicated to link correctly from Wiktionary. However, the regular meaning of chʼałdą́ą́ʼ is not well known in English, so I guess we can just link it to Chʼałdą́ą́ʼ / Jádí nátʼoh (chʼil daadánígíí). —Stephen 18:52, 11 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Could probably work; this is were wiktionary with its "word-snippets" falls short: dealing with highly context-based phrases. I saw Hazaʼaleehtsoh listed as "celerey"... nyyyyyeea... I guess. Same situation. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 19:07, 11 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Well, I don’t think it falls short, it’s just a different animal. This is an encyclopedia, that is a dictionary. They complement one another. Wiktionary does not permit encyclopedic articles, only dictionary ones. However, the dictionary articles can get quite complex. For example, all the Russian nouns show the gender and full declension; Russian verbs show the conjugation as well as links to other aspects of the same word (perfective, imperfective, semelfactive, etc.). Ideally, the Navajo dictionary entries for nouns would include duo-plurals where they exist, and verbs would show conjugations and links to the other aspects (continuative, etc.). Words like "together" do not have links to Wikipedia because "together" is not an encyclopedic topic; but words like "asparagus" and "Hungary" do have links to Wikipedia, since they are encyclopedic and since an encyclopedia treats them differently and gives different information from what a dictionary gives.

The only thing that might be called a shortcoming is that each editor contributes and writes only what he has time for and what he feels competent to do. For the Navajo entries on Wiktionary, the more complex material that is needed, such as conjugations, duo-plurals, and etymologies that explain the syllables, will have to wait for someone who knows and has the time and inclination. In the meantime, the Navajo entries there are really just stubs. But it is important to link to Navajo Wikipedia whenever possible. (English words link to English Wikipedia, Russian words to Russian Wikipedia, etc.).

Wiktionary entries also link to the same spelling in other Wiktionaries, so that "entrée" links to French Wiktionary "entrée", "почему" links to Russian Wiktionary "почему", and so on. I have thought about the possibility of having a Navajo Wiktionary, but it is such a daunting task that I don’t think it’s feasible. This is the only reason that our Navajo entries do not link to the Navajo Wiktionary. —Stephen 19:35, 11 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Wow. It seems you're really passionate about wiktionary; that's good. I am often thinking it could be due to the fact that the whole idea of "dictionaries" in general was made up in Europe; and I'm guessing that if the idea of a dictionary had been made up 'from scratch' by [insert non-European language] speakers, it would look quite different... an interesting exercise in alternative history if you will. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 19:51, 11 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

I have thought this as well. Japanese and Chinese dictionaries are different (no alphabetic order since they are not alphabets). I’ve tried to imagine a practical form for a good Navajo dictionary, but can’t think of one. I suppose it could be alphabetized on the final significant syllable, or arranged entirely by syllable. Arabic dictionaries are also different, and have a problem that is something like Navajo (except that Arabic does not take prefixes or suffixes, except for grammatical affixes such as person, gender, tense, and number). Arabic dictionaries arrange words under the root, so in order to look up "استعانة" (isti'aana, "seeking help"), you have to know that the root is "عون" ('awana, "to help") and you look for "عون", under which all of the many forms are given in alphabetic order. Sometimes it is quite tricky to know what the root is, but that is the nature of Arabic and you have to be able to spot the root in order to use the dictionary. —Stephen 20:09, 11 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

On Wiktionary, we try to improve on these native dictionary formats so that either natives or American students can look up the words. So we would have an entry for "استعانة" with a link in the etymology to the root "عون", and links from "عون" to the various forms including "استعانة". A lot of languages have syllabaries, including Korean, Ojibwe, Amharic, and most of the East Indian languages and many languages of Indo-China, so those dictionaries work in their own ways. —Stephen 20:21, 11 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

"–"

yeah, I'm kinda lazy. I built myself a custom keyboard driver so I am actually typing instead of using the mouse... couldn't find –, though... is it on the standard-keyboard, or do you copy-paste it? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 08:32, 14 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Not on a standard keyboard. Firefox has an add-on called Character Palette at https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/60146/ ... you can add the odd symbols you need to it and they sit in a row above the document. When you click on a symbol in the palette, it is copied to your clipboard so that you can insert it. —Stephen 08:39, 14 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Of course, you can always use & ndash;. —Stephen 08:41, 14 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

By the way, I came across this note. I can make out some of the words, but some I can’t and I don’t get the meaning: azoa yanlti biligaana bizaad nihil bahoozin, do ako nanl'do'do do nil bahozinoo. —Stephen 08:49, 14 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

I can guess around... azhą́ <?> yáníłtiʼ bilagáana bizaad nihił bééhozin, doo áko nantłʼah da doo[leeł] dóó nił bééhózin doo[leeł] <???>... one of the most prevalent spelling-"mishaps" is people confusing doo, dóó, doo[leeł], dóʼ, da, and daa... and there are quite a few of them in here, any of them could change the meaning completely. I'd have to hear it spoken. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 09:13, 14 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

{tl|bb} was increasingly obstructing the flow of text; it's still there, I just moved it into the upper right-hand corner and matched the colors to the icon (it might not look exactly on spot in monobook, tough)Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 09:14, 15 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I see it now. In Monobook it mixes in with bikʼi déshʼį́į́ʼígíí, akʼeʼshełchínígíí, and "log out" so that nothing there can be read. —Stephen 10:25, 15 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Your proofreading is really helpful, thanks, I type too fast sometimes; saw your little "daan"-debate; "dąʼąn" [sic] is never a word, neither is "daʼan" [sic]; "dąą-" is only used with suffixes. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 06:49, 16 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I’ll tell him. I know he just wants to get it right, but he is accustomed to languages that have a long literary tradition so that spellings are fixed and known to most speakers. It’s difficult to get it across that Navajo literature is so new that everybody spells everything his own way a lot of the time. —Stephen 08:09, 16 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

I know. If it's the same person as last time, I already told him about "Ye Olde Town Shoppe"... not many people would've cared, say, 400 years ago (if they were literate at all) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 08:36, 16 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

sp-note

Tséłnííʼjí is my best shot at the spelling for this one; was given as ceni?ji in the 1941 paper with the comment "rock center". It's another one of those adventures/exercises in mumbling to myself. Ałtaʼneetsʼéhiitsʼóóz was given as ?dtani-c'ehi' c'u's... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 06:49, 17 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Looks good to me. —Stephen 07:32, 18 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Basic template for infoboxes

Hello, Stephen. Does this wikipedia need a basic template to create infoboxes? If yes, I created such a template on the Esperanto Wikipedia: eo:Ŝablono:Informkesto. It based on the German template (de:Vorlage:Infobox), but it is a little bit more tricky. Greetings --Tlustulimu 15:41, 18 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, we will keep it in mind. We have some pretty good infoboxes that we are using, but it’s always good to see other ideas. —Stephen 19:30, 18 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Spelling

I see that in Naaki góneʼ yéigo daʼhojoogą́ą́ʼ, daʼhojoogą́ą́ʼ is spelled in a number of different ways, such as daʼhojoogą́ą́, dahojoogą́ą́, and dahójoogą́ą́. Also, in the word Ałgáádeitʼááh, is that the best spelling or should -deitʼááh be -deetʼaah? —Stephen 22:29, 18 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

(so now you're asking yourself on you own talkpage... kidding)

ahaʼdeetʼaah is all I know of.

As for the other one, I'd interpret that as "4th" person plural past of ""to fight/kill each other" so it doesn't literally mean "war"... and it should be daʼahijooggą́ą́ʼ (I think. If you wanna replace it inline, g'ahead, I'd have to ponder this some more before it can be moved).

"War" would be possible forms and variations of "-baaʼ/-baah", but compared to the massive butchering of the late 19th and early 20th century where huge explosion makers on caterpillaring chiddies are supported by fire-egg dropping flying chiddies, the job of a naabaahii seems... innocent. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 23:28, 18 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

But surely not daʼahijooggą́ą́ʼ with two g’s. I suppose daʼahijoogą́ą́ʼ? —Stephen 00:06, 19 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Oops... no, of course not. Good catch. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 00:13, 19 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

I’ll go ahead and move Naaki góneʼ yéigo daʼhojoogą́ą́ʼ to Naaki góneʼ yéigo daʼahijoogą́ą́ʼ, etc. There is the problem of Eʼelyaaígíí:WWII in Europe 1939-1941-Navajo.svg...it needs the word changed as well. —Stephen 10:54, 21 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

After I completed the move, it suddenly dawned on me what you meant by "inline". Let me know if you want to move it back to the old spelling. —Stephen 11:02, 21 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

That's fine. I'm pretty certain it's "correct" (I should give a footnote whenever I use that word around here). Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 17:01, 21 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

note

This seems to be something very specific; judging from the word, I don't think we can sell that to the public as "valerian" in general. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 05:54, 22 Ghąąjį 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and Node mispelled MediaWiki:October (now corrected). It's also on wiktionary (this was correct). Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 08:41, 22 Ghąąjįʼ 2010 (UTC)

Fixed along with Dutch and Polish Wiktionaries. —Stephen 10:06, 22 Ghąąjįʼ 2010 (UTC)

You are incredibly patient w/ that Ohio-IP, really; I see he's now arguing over wááshindoon. I'd simply suggest lobotomy -- deep incision, European frame of mind temporarily disabled... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 06:17, 25 Ghąąjįʼ 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and to add more confusion, naʼazhǫǫsh first and foremost means "birch" (yes, the tree) [1] Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 06:29, 25 Ghąąjįʼ 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I don’t know why it is so difficult. He seems to know a lot about Thai, and Thai is a language that has only a few real adjectives. Maybe he doesn’t know as much about Thai as I had thought. —Stephen 07:32, 25 Ghąąjįʼ 2010 (UTC)

I see the obvious question came up; 1.naʼazhǫǫsh=birch 2.hoop-and-pole game (because it's made of that wood) 3.casino (because people gamble like they do @2.) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 18:13, 27 Ghąąjįʼ 2010 (UTC)

That makes sense. It sounds as though they used the word naʼazhǫǫsh to refer to the pole itself, or maybe also the game. —Stephen 22:13, 27 Ghąąjįʼ 2010 (UTC)

The game, too, and that's what redlink 2. here is for.. There's also a related verb, but I seem to have forgotten the exact word right now. There's a place in Tséyiʼ somewhere called Tséyaa Ndaʼazhǫǫshí where the game was often played. I can't find a free picture of it (e.g. people playing the game) anywhere online; the related en-article would be en:Chunkey, I guess, but all the pictures are of the Aztec game where a stone/rock was used. Naʼazhǫǫsh is played with a wooden ring/hoop like this. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 22:43, 27 Ghąąjįʼ 2010 (UTC)

I found it described with some pictures in that old Franciscan dictionary. —Stephen 22:53, 27 Ghąąjįʼ 2010 (UTC)

Nice. I was thinking of "action", owever. I migt make an illustration myself once I find the time. And after I fix my keyboard...hhhhhhhhhh. sit. :P Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 23:39, 27 Ghąąjįʼ 2010 (UTC)

Oozéí / Ayahkinii

Should be added to the "nizhónígo ályaaígíí"-list once I've reffed the last two sections, so if your typographical hawk's-eyes could have another look at it... / I'm gonna change the title of the list to ádaalyaaígíí tonight, since that makes it #3 (plural). Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 16:41, 28 Ghąąjįʼ 2010 (UTC)

Looks very good. —Stephen 03:45, 29 Ghąąjįʼ 2010 (UTC)

beating "Kǫʼdibé"

Since this glorious en:Firesheep is now on the run, I installed the secure-server option here. You can now use
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/nv/wiki/
and you'll stay on the secure server even when going to en: via interwiki. Personally, I'm never on public wifi, but this wiki should have that option as well. (you might have to clear the cash) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 01:44, 3 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

Good idea. —Stephen 09:09, 3 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

FYI

I'm not gonna put interwikis on this one... not yet at least. The concept is so specific, not easy to slap anything onto it. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 20:17, 7 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

Dééłdą́ą́ʼ

I meant to delete this. It's apparently a different plant primarily. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 02:02, 12 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

I figured that was probably the case, but thought it would be a good idea to have it as a redirect until it could be rewritten. —Stephen 03:55, 12 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

I was gonna wait a day for the bots to fix all the interwikis. Ah well, I did it manually. It's all good. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 04:10, 12 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

someone wasn't thinking...

When you're logged out, you can't upload files which is kinda weird already... but this is brainless: new accounts can right away "Overwrite existing files uploaded by oneself" -- but it takes 4 days before you can upload anything in the first place. Man... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 15:18, 15 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

It doesn’t sound too Orwellian, I don’t think. I guess if you’ve waited four days to upload something, then you’ve already waited long enough to overwrite what you’ve uploaded. I’m just surprised that you have to wait four days to be able to upload a file. Still, I suppose that most people who know how to create and upload a file in the first place have already been around longer than four days. I’ve been around Wikipedia for eight years and I still have trouble with the intricacies of uploading.

I see the word łá fairly often, and it appears to me to be an error. I think in most cases it should be łáʼ, but I hesitate to change it because there are other possibilities. If you get time, you might search for łá and see what you think. —Stephen 15:51, 15 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

I'm getting the eerie feeling that some of the people who created an account here did so because they wanted to do something restricted; then they logged in and were still told "no". And I know rez-life. People will just say "ah well, whatever, so forget it..." I'm gonna have to ask around or read up on what the rationale for that is; after all, any jerk can create random "asdfg&^%$"-pages.

Anyways... looks like they should all be łaʼ (some)... there is no łáʼ (can't think of any word that has short high-tone+glottal at the end). I guess łá occurs in fast handwriting when people just place that mark "somewhere up there". You can be sure when you find "łaʼ... nááná łaʼ" (or náánáłaʼ). The only other possibility is łą́ (> łání).

Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 17:00, 15 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

Right, łaʼ. Besides łą́, I did not know how likely it would be to have a typo using the wrong L, as in lá or lą́. For me it is easy to accidentally type l when I mean ł or vice versa, but this might not be a common problem with others. —Stephen 18:42, 15 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

"goatman"...?

Is there an insect called "water goatman"? seems like a misprint... "boatman"? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 23:00, 19 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

(oh, and Łeʼesoołii was wrong... it's in the big dictionary, but I was skeptical from the get-go... sounded to me like something on the ground, and I was right. I'll re-create it in the next days/waiting for the bots to clean it up)

No, I’m sure you’re right, it must be the "water boatman" (en:Corixidae). —Stephen 00:33, 20 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

---

[2] > dahsitą́ is for indicating that it's on top of the tank Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 18:36, 20 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I guess it normally sits on the ground. —Stephen 20:06, 20 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

Q

where did you find this? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 01:10, 26 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

It’s in Yellowhair’s picture dictionary, p. 11. —Stephen 01:47, 26 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

Ah, OK. It's an anglicism, but if it's there, then ok. Just checking. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 01:59, 26 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

mystery

For some reason, 15 or so pages just disappeared without any trace or entry in the logs... it should be 1793... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 23:26, 26 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

Maybe the software has been modified not to count certain kinds of pages. Although I can’t think of any kind of page that would total up to only 15. But it’s the only explanation that seems reasonable to me that explains the silence of the deletion logs. —Stephen 00:47, 27 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

Right

Wóóneeshchʼįįdii is actually the "correct" spelling... and it is translated as both locust and a cicada. Could it be that when it says "locust" in dictionaries, they actually mean the colloquial (but incorrect) term for cicada? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 22:52, 27 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

It could be. In English, people often call cicadas locusts. I don’t think anybody but entomologists and farmers call true locusts locusts...to most people, true locusts are just big grasshoppers. —Stephen 23:33, 27 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

That's what I figured. So I'll make that the cicada then. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 00:22, 28 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

Mess-up

I messed up. Wónitłʼizí is actually (mainly) the woodlouse/pill bug. I'm busy sorting it out... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 00:22, 28 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

red tape

adminship expires 12/14/2010. Are you up for another round? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 20:22, 29 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

Yes. I don’t know where the time goes. Seems like it’s only been a couple of months. —Stephen 20:26, 29 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

We've been here since October last year... alright... sign it please. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 20:29, 29 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2010 (UTC)

move

[3]... kinda weird to have a picture of a red beetle and call it orange. Maybe Mr. Yellowhair worked in dim light...

I think the photo's color correction and contrast is a little off. en:WP says that ladybird beetles are yellow, orange, or scarlet (a bright red color with a hue that is somewhat toward the orange). If the Navajo words for "red" and "orange" are comparable to the English terms, maybe the one in between, łichxíʼí, would be more apt? 71.66.97.228 21:11, 5 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

All of them are fine. When speaking I'd decide for each specific beetle I'd see. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 00:34, 6 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

What exactly is a "corn beetle" ("corn louse")? That's what Y&M calls them (wikipedia gives me a redirect to "ground beetle," but that's too generic) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 07:45, 5 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

I think it must be this. 71.66.97.228 21:15, 5 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

Hm... it says consumes wheat. We're looking for AE:corn / NV:Naadą́ą́ʼ, e.g. maize... I'll go for this (for now). Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 00:34, 6 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

Nice work! This seems probably to be the right one. 71.66.97.228 03:58, 6 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

What is Y&M? I have the Yellowhair picture dictionary and have also used the Neundorf, but are there others I should obtain as well? 71.66.97.228 03:59, 6 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

I suggest you don't... unless you have $400.- for the books and 4 semesters in College (tuition ~$10,000) to learn how to use them. They're quite useless without academic training. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 04:13, 6 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

I think of the ladybird beetle as being orange. It could be that the color in the photo is off a bit. The corn beetle is a tricky one. The Navajo have a positive image of it, which is a little confusing. Besides the maize weevil, what about en:Western corn rootworm? (better photos at corn rootworm —Stephen ^{(> haneʼ)} 05:13, 6 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

The "positive image" one is tádídíín yiyání (corn pollen)... a corn worm (any) is Naadą́ą́ʼ bichʼosh  Thanks for finding that one, I was looking for it. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 05:41, 6 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

status constructus/inflection

RE: certain words (mostly true nouns) retain a type of inflection, e.g. change with prefixes. Béésh > bibéézh (similarly: tłʼóół > bitłʼóól, sǫʼ > bizǫʼ, hééł > biyéél etc.) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 05:29, 7 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I had see bibéézh and other similar mutations, but I’ve never heard of status constructus before (it looks like what we call the construct state in Arabic grammar). I think that’s what I refer to as the possessed form. It always seemed to make sense to me why saad becomes bizaad, but it is a mystery why the other end should change, like bibéézh or bitłʼóól (although I know they do). —Stephen ^{(> haneʼ)} 07:06, 7 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

I threw in status constructus since I know you know Arabic. It's actually forward voicing which affects the entire syllable not just the first C in a CVC. It just so happens that the d in saad is already voiced and thus remains voiced.

I wouldn't change it when you see it "mispelled", though, it's something for the "hyper-correct" crowd, as if someone decided tomorrow we should all spell dogz instead of dogs. It doesn't really matter whether you spell bibéésh or bibéézh — once you say it out aloud, both of them become zh anyways.

So in any case, a wiktionary-entry for *béézh is junk. None of these voiced forms can stand on their own (e.g. prefix-less) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 07:24, 7 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

pop-quiz

I'm confused — do longhorn beetles have a life-cycle similar to June bugs and rain beetles, or what is the deal here? They don't emerge from the ground, or do they? maybe you can skim ru:Усачи (жуки) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 21:18, 11 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

(...and by the way: łéʼétsoh > łéézh-biyiʼí-tsoh > łéʼyiʼítsoh > łéʼétsoh big-in-the-soil :)... You were not totally wrong about the horse, though. The theory goes that łį́į́ʼ was originally a "pet" (probably dog), and that's how it's still used (see Naałʼashí, last sentence). When horses were introduced, they became "THE pet," and the dog was demoted to the "shit-pet". Poor puppy...)

Basically, it says that longhorn beetles lay eggs under the tree bark. The larval stage lasts for one or two years, depending on the species, during which time the larvae eat the damaged wood of diseased trees.

Dogs don’t get any respect. Under the circumstances, it’s surprising how patient and tolerant they are. —Stephen ^{(> haneʼ)} 23:32, 11 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

True. Makes me think of Garfield and Odie. As for the beetles, I'm trying to figure out whether most longhorn beetles emerge/pupate/"hatch"/whatnot at the same time/season as June bugs. Only then would it make sense that they have the same name. But, ah well, I guess I'll accept that oddity for now. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 00:20, 12 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

Here are some sources:

• "longhorn+beetle"+"adults+emerge"&hl=en&ei=5i4ETZGQMcSt8Aa04bjnAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q="longhorn beetle" "adults emerge"&f=false
• "longhorn+beetle"+"adults+emerge"&hl=en&ei=5i4ETZGQMcSt8Aa04bjnAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q="longhorn beetle" "adults emerge"&f=false
• [4]

71.66.97.228 02:15, 12 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

So it appears that longhorn beetles emerge through small oval holes in the bark during the summer, especially in August. —Stephen ^{(> haneʼ)} 22:23, 12 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure you can answer my fictional little pop-quiz... ;) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 00:31, 13 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

I can’t think what it could be, unless it has something to do with yishtʼíinii, inchxǫ́ʼí, or maybe a form with shił. —Stephen ^{(> haneʼ)} 01:34, 13 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

if bideeʼ is the horn of an animal, and beʼadeeʼ is the horn someone took from that animal, then the head I took from elsewhere is sheʼatsiiʼ — makes sense? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 01:42, 13 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

Ah, makes sense. —Stephen ^{(> haneʼ)} 01:45, 13 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

Keep that in mind when you order "your meat" :P Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 01:46, 13 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

So that’s why they say sheʼatsįʼ then. —Stephen ^{(> haneʼ)} 07:57, 14 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

Yep, 'cause it's not your own. ON a different note, I think I had a minor freak-out and I'm close to losing it. a) please monitor me b) try to get my point across in a more civil manner if you can somehow, I'm gettin' ticked off. Ahéheeʼ. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 08:09, 14 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

Ah. If that’s who I think it is, he tends to get on my nerves a little, too (which is saying something because it’s not easy to do). I cannot imagine what is in his head that he thinks there is some kind of disadvantage or vulnerability to having a named account. I guess it takes all kinds. —Stephen ^{(> haneʼ)} 08:18, 14 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

If he doesn't want an account, fine, but it ain't gonna fly here. Before you speak, you usually say your name and your clans, or at least your name. More importantly this is a different project and my brain is not his dictionary, and I'm not his gofer for wiktionary-entries. To be more blunt, he can go pick his own cotton. He can be glad that someone as patient as you are fixes the minor messes he leaves behind. Ironically, I'm beginning to appreciate Node_ue. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 08:29, 14 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

BTW, we are ahead of Kalmyk now Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 08:35, 14 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

And closing in on Silesian. I noticed recently that most of the other Native American wikis do not seem to have any active contributors anymore, except for bots. It’s disheartening to see so little interest from those who speak the languages. Well, it takes more than just being able to speak...it also requires some computer skills, HTML knowledge, an artistic sense, and a desire to write. Not many people have all of the things needed. —Stephen ^{(> haneʼ)} 08:53, 14 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

It also takes a certain confidence (and maybe arrogance) to hold one's ground. Anthony's userpage about "no spiritual content" and his intro on the main page saying "we just don't do that here" is what caught my interest. Before that post, I didn't even consider becoming involved here (it's not like I didn't know about this site; basically everybody knew about it since the beginning...) I wish someone showed up at the other wikis, took the lead, and gave it a similar defining mission. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 09:16, 14 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

Note

I'm trying to calque/"import" the Southern towns' names from Apache; should work in most cases, but it's half-fudged, hence the note on top of the page. (and, yeah, you can list tsé dootłʼizh as "peridot/olivine") Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 21:55, 17 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. —Stephen ^{(> haneʼ)} 21:59, 17 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

Yáʼátʼééh, Stephen G. Brown/archive2! Seb az86556 nichʼįʼ haneʼ ánáyiidlaa Hello, Stephen G. Brown/archive2 - You have an answer from Seb az86556

coord

So after a few posts and chats {{coord}} and GeoHack now work; clear your cache (Firefox Ctrl+F5), check it out: Ayání Bitoʼ :) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 18:07, 24 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

It’s magic! Wait till Anthony tries it out. He won’t believe it. —Stephen ^{(> haneʼ)} 20:38, 24 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)

Hah. I see you're busy distributing it; it has a small glitch though... longer names cause a line-break on the map... I think I fixed it now, but the servers might take a day or two to pick it up. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 21:35, 24 Níłchʼitsoh 2010 (UTC)