Choyoołʼįįhí bichʼįʼ yáshtiʼ:Stephen G. Brown/archive1

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"Wikiibíídiiya" bitsʼą́ą́dę́ę́ʼ

Navajo language template

I edit the native language user for you in navajo: Arizona86002, 19:39, 20 T'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC).

Ahééh 'ílį́, it's beautiful (Template:User nv). Stephen G. Brown 22:42, 20 T'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

sp

hi -- how come this one doesn't have a "move"-button like the English wiki? several article-titles are misspelled. I just tweaked bisoodi into bisóodi, but w/o the move-function given to everyone, you're gonna have to keep up with me. For starters, move beegashi to béégashii :P Seb az86556 06:38, 29 Bini'ant'ą́ą́ts'ózí 2009 (UTC)

"Move" is "nahashná". It should be there. It is a good idea to move misspellings to the correct spelling, but some may be different only because they are a different dialect. For instance, Eastern dialect spells yas, but Western dialect writes zas. When it is a matter of dialect, we should have a redirect from the other dialect to the existing page.
We also need to make a decision about the apostrophe. Some pages have it as ʼ, some as ’, and some others as '. —Stephen 06:47, 29 Bini'ant'ą́ą́ts'ózí 2009 (UTC)
P.S.— If you speak good Navajo, you can add {{babel|nv|en}} to your user page. —Stephen 06:59, 29 Bini'ant'ą́ą́ts'ózí 2009 (UTC)
It's not there (yet?) -- I just realized it might be because I created the account just a few minutes ago. Maybe something about "established user"? we'll see what happens. I'm not good at speaking it, but studied at Diné College for three years and was told I'm a good speller... and I guess I'm bored. It's all quiet at en.wiki. I might stick around copyedting the obvious, don't worry about dialects, I'll leave anything ambiguous in place. ;) ahéhee' Seb az86556 07:07, 29 Bini'ant'ą́ą́ts'ózí 2009 (UTC)
I wonder if it might be your "skin". Under "my preferences", "appearance", the default skin is "NaaltsoosŁáa'ígíí". Is that what you have? We need to make templates for nv1, nv2, nv3, nv4 for users that are not quite native speakers.
It’s good to have some help around here. Besides spellings and apostrophes, we need more work on categories (among many other things). —Stephen 07:15, 29 Bini'ant'ą́ą́ts'ózí 2009 (UTC)

n-1, Userbox, User-level

Template:User nv-1 available.

Template:Userbox, Template:User-level transferred. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 10:39, 29 Bini'ant'ą́ą́ts'ózí 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Looks good. —Stephen 11:04, 29 Bini'ant'ą́ą́ts'ózí 2009 (UTC)

And you (and anyone else) can put this onto your page if you like (I'm assuming that's you @ English wikipedia...)

{{User pagelink|Stephen_G._Brown‎}}
Yes, that’s me. Thanks.

Translation of a short story

Hi my friend!

As I see, you speak Navajo well, is it right? I would like to request something from you. Yes, translation. I hope, it's not a bad thing for you. Some years ago I wrote a (really) short story about a lonely man (actually symbolized the Saami nation). I translated into some languages and I thought, it would be great to have it more, like also in Diné bizaad :) I made this page, the English translation is somewhere there. You can put the Diné bizaad translation there. I have a guaraní from south america, it would be great to have a North American native language there. Thank you again! Sorry for my disturb... :( - hu:User:Eino81

I saw, you visited the page, but you did not made translation :( Will you? :) I have a Navajo friend, but unfortunately he don't speak his mother tongue... hu:User:Eino81
It is a question of time. We are stretched thin at the moment. —Stephen 03:42, 3 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

quick check

"Kéyah biłha'da'haasdzoígíí"shąʼ éí Bilagáanakʼehjiígo haʼatʼíísh átʼé?
(What's "Kéyah biłha'da'haasdzoígíí" supposed to be in English?)

(Sounds like a group of things where there's a line or mark-up drawn around or in an area...) "Subdivision"? "Continent"? "Federation"?
Ahéheeʼ Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 02:59, 2 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

I don’t know the best way to say it. It is more like a political subdivision. For example, states of the United States, or different countries such as Mexico. —Stephen 03:10, 2 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)
OK, got it. I'm about to make another infobox for supranational organizations like UN and EU... guess I'll have to dream up a new category ("Kéyah Ałhidadiidzooígíí" ?). By the way, I have the "nahashná"-button now. It is indeed about being an "established user" and takes a while. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 11:23, 2 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)
You’re doing a great job with them, they really look professional. —Stephen 12:49, 2 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)
Yáʼátʼééh, Stephen G. Brown/archive1! Seb az86556 nichʼįʼ haneʼ ánáyiidlaa
Hello, Stephen G. Brown/archive1 - You have an answer from Seb az86556
(there we go...)

button-stuff

by the way...some of the buttons and standard-pagenames sound like someone took a dictionary and simply copy-pasted the first form that pops up without any backchecking. The entry in a nav-dictionary is 1st person singular...that sometimes makes sense, but if it's not congugated it becomes a mess.... "Choyoołʼįįhí" sounds weird to me..."-í" is the noun ending (-er), but it's used with 3rd person singular (for example, a buffalo is called "ayání" and not "ashání"). It should therefore be "Choyoołʼįįhí".

Secondly, "baa yinísht'į́" somehow means "I discuss it" which might be acceptable for content pages, but on a user talkpage? ...the word in connection with a person means "bother, molest, harass" (Cf. "Shaa yinítį́" = "He molested me (sexually)"). That's really weird.

So the whole thing should changed to "Choyoołʼįįhí bichʼįʼ yáshtiʼ" (I talk to the user).

Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 11:52, 5 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC) (... or from now on Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 11:56, 5 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC))

I agree with you, I’m sure that’s how this Wikipedia got started (see [Wikiibíídiiya:Ádaaniidí, yáʼátʼééh!]). However, I don’t know where changes to buttons can be made. I’ve just been using the English word ‘user’ for user (as in Template:User nv). Some time ago I saw something about translating the various messages, buttons and call-outs for the Navajo Wikipedia, and that only a few percent had been translated, but now I can’t find it. We need to find out how to make these changes. I think you should become an admin here, but I don’t know how it is done. I am an admin on the English Wiktionary, but not on Wikipedia, and things apparently are done differently here. Currently the only admins here are User:Deskana ‎and User:Node ue, neither ofwhom know anything about Navajo. —Stephen 13:28, 6 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)
Seen that. Checked the contribs... Deskana hasn't been around in 2 years, and Node ue's reputation is close to the toilet-bowl on en.wiki. I cannot claim that I know Navajo (in deference to those who actually do), but I'm certain I can figure more than most.
I hope the guy from Shonto will be around again soon. I left a message on his "molestation-page" :P to ask what he thinks of "baa yinísht'į́"...
I've seen Template:Wikivar but where the heck are the codes for those templates located at? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 18:03, 6 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)
That’s Anthony. Yes, he’s really knows Navajo. He is busy with a class at the moment, but hopefully he will have time soon. As soon as he starts to have some time, I think he should become an admin here as well.
I found the place about localizing (translating) the website: Wikiibíídiiya baa yinísht'į́:Community Portal. —Stephen 19:21, 6 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)
Nice. But as we guessed, they are all locked and protected :( Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 19:30, 6 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)
Locked, yes, but I see in the bar on the left under Translators, there is a link to Requests for permissions. You just need to apply for permission and follow the instructions. You could probably get good advice from Choyoołʼįįhí:Jmerkey, and probably also a lead towards getting adminship. Jmerkey does the Cherokee Wikipedia but also has a page on the English Wikipedia, and he knows well the problems with Node ue. Jmerkey has blocked Node ue several times for various lengths of time. —Stephen 19:45, 6 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)
Done. requested translator privileges and already found the namespace-page. It looks indeed like they can be named separately. we'll see... I hope Anthony can give some input once I have those permissions. Thanks.

permission granted

I have been granted translator-right at the above. It's time to really rake my brain... and maybe ask Anthony. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 03:12, 7 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

here's what I'll do: I'll set up a table with the proposed changes. It'll take a while, though Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 03:36, 7 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)
That’s great news. I know Anthony will be happy to help if he can find the time. Maybe where possible, you could present him with the English and the Navajo and then he could probably very quickly make changes to the Navajo in just a few seconds. On Youtube, it seems that <daybreakwarrior> translates a lot of Navajo songs and announcements into English, and his translations seem extremely good. I have not spoken with him before, but I wonder if he might be of some use. He is certainly interested in the language. The thing with these translations is, I think, that some of the words in a computer sense are new, and it makes them hard to do. —Stephen 03:58, 7 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)
I made one simple change just to see how it works:
The link
on the top-left should change to
in the next few days if I did this right. Moreover, I have the creepy feeling that whoever did this worked his/her way around the current messages by using some sort of substitute-function: most of the messages that appear in (*cough*) Navajo here are still in English on the transwiki-lists, so that whole thing might have been overridden somehow... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 05:23, 7 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

more trouble...

It is indeed as I feared. Node_ue has overriden all system messages locally. As reluctant as I am to play the "Big Guy," how do I get adminship here? Seems it's the only way. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 06:47, 7 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

I checked Jmerkey and now I see that he has been absent for some time. I have left a message on the admin noticeboard of English Wiki asking for adminship for you. Hopefully you will hear right away from someone who knows about what to do next. —Stephen 08:23, 7 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)
Thank you. btw... Bilagáana nishłį́ dóó Béésh Bichʼahii báshíshchíín :) ...and I am one of 10 white people worldwide who made it through Diné College's nav-program. But thanks. But calling me Navajo might make for a stronger case here. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 09:05, 7 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)
Yáʼátʼééh, Stephen G. Brown/archive1! Seb az86556 nichʼįʼ haneʼ ánáyiidlaa
Hello, Stephen G. Brown/archive1 - You have an answer from Seb az86556


we have an answer...

...here Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 01:33, 8 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)


...and I posted the request here. (Navajo and English) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 02:01, 8 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)
Nizhóní! —Stephen 02:37, 8 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

...and now for the creepiest stuff

I'm getting the willies... seriously.

The text that pops up (permanently localized) under the edit window has a link "contact us". And guess where it leads? node.ue@gmail.com !!! Does this guy own the place? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 13:29, 8 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

I contacted Deskana about it. This is nuts... you could leave your two cents as well if you like. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 13:51, 8 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

Let’s wait until we get administratorship activated. We should try to discover where the contact address is stored. I suspect it must be in a site *.js or *.ccs file. If Deskana doesn’t know (I suspect he doesn’t), and if we can’t find it, after we are approved we need to contact Node ue and ask him where it is so that we can change it to an active administrator. —Stephen 11:26, 9 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)
I found it. And it can be X-ed once we get adminship. What quirks me is that (according to Node's talkpage) this is one of the main reasons he got blocked in the past. Apparently, whenever someone took it out, he unblocked himself (since he's an admin, he can apparently do as he pleases and is accountable to no-one) and then re-inserted it. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 11:36, 9 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)
We just have to wait and see what happens. If he changes it back after we edit it, we might have a community vote, and if he does not respect the outcome of the vote, we should report it somewhere. Maybe to the same place where we applied for adminship. As I said, I don’t have a lot of experience on Wikipedia, so I don’t know much about the protocols here. —Stephen 11:42, 9 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

I wish I knew how...

I don't know how that stuff works, but eventually (and before you break your fingers), we should try getting a bot for this kinda stuff... it's such a tedious and simple procedure Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 22:16, 10 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

I did it in a word processor, which makes it pretty easy. I just have to be careful about apostrophes that are for italics or something. —Stephen 22:31, 10 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

FA's

Just to show that we're not just producing junk here, I'd like to interlink Naabeehó bisiláołtsooí bizaad chodayoosʼįįdígíí (Navajo Code Talkers) as our first "featured articles" across all wikipedias (I think it's the most complete, now well-sourced, and appropriate article to get that honor). Before I do that, the {glottal} should go... I'm not as fast at it as you are, so... please?:) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 13:16, 15 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. —Stephen 15:41, 15 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)
btw...I suddenly have a rollback-option. We are sysops until Oct 15 :) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 15:55, 15 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)
Great. It will make things a lot easier. —Stephen 16:01, 15 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)
They say since no-one commented, it has expire on Oct 15... time to make this a rush... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 17:06, 15 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

update

I took care of the backlog @ Speedy deletions and have started implementing the changes to the system messages.

Give me some good paraphrasing of "Community Portal" -- I know it's the main talkpage, but "Portal" doesn't really exist, and I can't seem to see the complete context/sense of that link. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 20:00, 15 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

How about "community", "entryway", "meeting place", "front door", "signpost", "bulletin board"? —Stephen 21:08, 15 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

community portal edit

hmmm... well, first of all, that was me putting in what it says in English ( I was accidentially logged out).

I'm trying to forego the possibility that the phrase doesn't make sense at all, and that people won't even know what it's supposed to mean... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 12:48, 17 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

Ah, sorry. —Stephen 12:58, 17 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

importing?

Oh and something else: I have changed the NAMESPACE designations via transwiki.net since I'm now sure that I was right about what initially ticked me off (Anthony's writing leaves many hints that Choyoołʼįįhí does not mean what Node meant to say, for example on the Code Talkers article, he renders that as "word users" and it's Chodayoołʼįįhí(gíí)... (da is plural)).

It says on transwiki.net that whatever is changed still needs to be "imported" or "implemented"... we now both have an importing-option (under "page tools") but it says it's empty. So if you happen to find any other clues on that let me know. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 13:21, 17 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

I asked about importing a file at http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual_talk:Parameters_to_Special:Export. Perhaps they will tell me something useful. —Stephen 14:45, 17 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

deadline extended

don't know if you've read it, but our adminship has been extended to Dec 15. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 15:24, 20 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

Great! Actually, I expected that it eventually would be. I’m sure the short period was due to a legitimate concern about our intentions and/or competence, and we’ve already made it clear that our intentions are good and that we have at least sufficient competence. I don’t know where you learned all that wiki markup language and the other things you’re doing. It’s pretty amazing. You should be a developer. —Stephen 15:40, 20 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)
thanks.

cheat-sheet

I submitted a commit-request @ translatewiki.net... It'll take a while to be ported, but here's your cheat-sheet Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 16:01, 20 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

English Dinékʼehjí change
Talk Naaltsoos_baa_yáshtiʼ
User Choyoołʼįįhí "the thing I use">"the one who's using"
User_talk Choyoołʼįįhí_bichʼįʼ_yáshtiʼ "argue about him/her">"talk to him/her"
$1_talk $1_baa_yáshtiʼ "...talk about it"
File Eʼelyaaígíí (no change)
File_talk Eʼelyaaígíí_baa_yáshtiʼ
MediaWiki MediaWiki (kept)
MediaWiki_talk MediaWiki_baa_yáshtiʼ
Template Bee_álnééhí (with-it production-is-done)
(cf. "with-it working-is-done" = tool)
Template_talk Bee_álnééhí_baa_yáshtiʼ
Help Anáʼálwoʼ (no change)
Help_talk Anáʼálwoʼ_baa_yáshtiʼ
Category Naaltsoos_biiʼ_sinilí ("pages/books in-it located-í" = bookshelf, archive, library-catalog)
Category_talk Naaltsoos_biiʼ_sinilí_baa_yáshtiʼ

wow...

...busy beaver Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 12:10, 21 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

hmm...

interesting... seems like we need to come up with an official block-policy for this wiki. I just went nilly-willy for 24 hours this time... we don't even have a template for that stuff yet. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 16:24, 22 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)

I don’t know anything about these policies on the other Wikipedias, but on English Wiktionary, we just block’em when it’s obvious vandalism, stupidity, vicious bigotry, or harassment. We try to look at every edit as though it were well intended, and if it passes that, then it gets an explanation upon reverting and a notice to use the discussion page rather than editwarring. But if it doesn’t pass for well intended, we just revert it. If the contributor continues with the same or similar edits, we block him. Usually the first block is for 3 hours, the second is for one day, then a week, two weeks, a month, three months, a year, and indefinite. But some edits are so egregious that we go straight to indefinite block. Occasionally we’ll receive an email from the blocked party complaining about the block, which is an indication that he meant well, in which case we explain the problem and unblock him if he agrees to stop the nonsense.
But on English Wiktionary, there are thousands of contributors every day and only a handful of admins to do everything, so we have few express policies and we mete out rough justice. On the English Wikipedia, they have thousands of admins (I’m guessing), and hundreds of contributors, so they can be meticulous and legalistic and have a complex written policy. In the case at hand, we’re still only two, but then we also don’t get many contributors. But my personal experience is to make judgments based on my own common sense.
In this case, I would categorize what he wrote as stupidity and revert it, and I could give him a 3-hour block or do nothing. This sort usually makes a single stupid remark or deletion and never comes back. —Stephen 07:19, 23 Bini'ant'ą́ą́tsoh 2009 (UTC)
Yáʼátʼééh, Stephen G. Brown/archive1! Seb az86556 nichʼįʼ haneʼ ánáyiidlaa
Hello, Stephen G. Brown/archive1 - You have an answer from Seb az86556


weird stuff

So it seems that user:Manu produced some of the longer entries on countries last year by simply copying over the text from [can't find where the starting point was]... It cannot be that every country's capital has 890,000+odd inhabitants, has 31 subdivisions, and is 1 million square kilometers in size, can it? Thus my deletions... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 23:14, 4 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that. I had not taken the time to read them before or check the data. I wonder what he was thinking. Surely he knew it could not be correct. It looks like he got the original text here, from Anthony, but didn’t know how to adjust it for other countries. —Stephen 00:55, 5 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)

my guess

as an admin, you have a "rollback" bottom that reverts anything w/o confirmation... maybe you accidentally hit it. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 05:00, 12 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)

That must be it. —Stephen 05:13, 12 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)

"I quit"

I decided to give up on the people at translatewiki.net. they have twice refused to implement the changes, reasoning that all messages need to be translated first before namespaces will be implemented. I know I'm never gonna get done with all the messages; moreover, I made a deliberate decision to leave the rollovers and tooltips in English to cater to the bilingual sociolinguistic setting. They don't get that point, either.

I'll just locally implement whatever I can and what's needed. We'll have to put up with the namespaces. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 21:24, 12 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)

PS: I wonder how Node got his sh*t implemented without translating any of the other messages.... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 21:25, 12 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)

Well, I think it’s in pretty good shape the way it is. If absolutely everything got translated, a lot of people would find it too difficult. A certain admixture of English will be helpful to the average user (not to mention the fact that a lot of these technical terms are unknown in Navajo). —Stephen 00:16, 13 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)
I know. But the issue of namespaces remains... for now, I'm making templates that "plaster over" the namespaces. That's not elegant, but possible. It's just frustrating to get this kind of reasoning slapped into one's face when Node apparently had the freedom to produce junk w/o being under scrutiny... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 04:48, 13 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps they were just concerned about making many piecemeal updates every couple of days and wanted to wait until all the changes were in first. If so, after a few weeks with no new namespace and system translations, maybe they will go ahead and implement what they have. We just need to be patient and not worry too much about it. —Stephen 05:05, 13 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)


Without any response to my concerns, my translator-privileges have been revoked. I left a note on the main administrator's talkpage, explaining the situation. Let's just hope for the best. There's nothing more I can do. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 00:39, 14 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)

I think it will be okay in the end. The key is patience.
I would like to see a nice article about KTNN 660 AM, Window Rock and the on-air staff, Sammy Boyd, Ray Tsotsie, Roy Keeto, Leanderson Shay, LA Williams, and Paul Jones. If we had that, they might reciprocate and give us the occasional mention. Perhaps their editing staff could even write their own article (in Navajo, of course). Just a thought. —Stephen 04:41, 14 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I have a whole like that in mind. R.C.Gorman + Blackfire should be on here, too. Whenever I see Anthony write, I am in awe. I wish I could pull that kinda stuff out of my brain... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 04:54, 14 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)
KCIE 90.5 FM (Beehai) might be interested, too. We should ask them. It would have to be coordinated with Anthony, I think, since the Apache editors might not be able to write good Navajo. —Stephen 05:08, 14 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)

Hah! I see you added my alma mater.... :P... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 05:39, 14 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)

Maybe Irene Silentman could be imposed upon to write an article for us on Diné College and the summer workshops. You probably have contacts back there. —Stephen 05:46, 14 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)
Most people I knew there are gone. That was years ago... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 05:53, 14 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)

I just don't understand, it is so sad, really...

To give you the full story, here's what happened at transwiki.net:

After I had completed all the messages that I deemed needed, I requested implementation. The response was "won't do this, translate all messages first". So I did a bit more.

I requested implementation again, the answer was "percentage too low, won't be implemented." So I went ahead and copied the English over, since I was going to leave it in English anyways -- because I believed it would count as getting to the level required for implementation.

Now I get a response that says "If you want to leave it in English, leave it in English. You have now destroyed your reputation as a localiser. Languages are supposed to treated with respect."

...I don't understand. When I leave them in English, I am told, "we won't do this, percentage too low," when I copy them in English to get the required percentage, I am now told that I am disrespectful and have destroyed my reputation.

I simply do not understand. How on earth could Node get blatantly wrong phrases implemented and remains an admin, while I destroy my reputation while trying to fix it? I seriously need your help. Anthony looked at the links on the main page and commented (via email) "nizhoni, and it reads well"... I am seriously so sad now. Not because of my "reputation" or whatever, but because this language has been butchered by Node and there seems no way to fix it. Just why didn't anybody put Node under the same kind of scrutiny??? I wish they had... everything would be "nizhoni" then... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 09:27, 14 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)

Sounds par for the course. There was an article in September’s Time Magazine about Wikipedia and why it has hit a plateau and is suddenly stagnating. This reaction fits in with the article. Whichever bureaucrat you were dealing with is clearly not the linguistic sophisticate that he takes himself for. Navajo is different from other languages in these things, and his pronouncement that "Languages are supposed to treated with respect" just emphasizes his complete lack of understanding of what we are faced with here.
As for Node, that took place two or three years ago. It was a different climate in those days. He would not have been able to do what he did if he tried it today.
Your bureaucrat reminds me very much of an editor that we have on on English Wiktionary. He knows just enough about languages and linguistics to be dangerous, and has managed to paralyze major projects such as Swahili and Serbo-Croatian, and is causing our best editors to quit and go elsewhere. Sad.
I have contacted Diné College and invited them to write an article. We’ll see if we get a response. —Stephen 01:46, 16 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)
Thank you. As you can see, I have stayed away for 2 days. I needed someone to tell me that my assessment of the situation wasn't completely out of touch with reality. Though it still irks me that some of these namespaces are so wrong that a blind man with a stick can see it, I have come to remember one of the lessons I slowly learned from one of my Navajo teachers... when you know you're right and they are wrong, it's time to let them be wrong and stop arguing.
On a positive note, check this out: 41% growth on official count last month, 170%+ on AltCount. We'll put this thing into the 1,000 range, and I don't care if it's only stubs. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 18:16, 16 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)
Yes, simply allowing people to be wrong avoids a lot of headaches.
That’s a pretty good Wiki report. One thing that the report does not seem to show, though, is how much cleaner and more attractive all of the articles are now.
You might be interested in reading the Time article I mentioned. I found it at Time: Is Wikipedia a Victim of Its Own Success?. —Stephen 19:52, 16 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)

Hey, look what *I* found...

Excellent. We’ve been using them on English Wiktionary for some time now and they are very useful. —Stephen 22:56, 18 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)

angler (fish)

is there any other animal that catches its prey w/ a line/rope? (If not, saying that it's a fish is redundant) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 03:40, 19 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)

Only man, as far as I know. An angler is a kind of fisherman. —Stephen 03:43, 19 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)
well, yeah... so apart from us and that fish :P... I just think the constant mentioning of "łóóʼ" in those names sounds silly... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 03:57, 19 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)

"Tábąąh ayání"

by chance I discovered you're transferring words into wiktionary. "Tábąąh" means "by the water's shore," so I'm not sure if that makes sense for just any "buffalo". Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 20:00, 21 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)

I thought of that, but we don’t usually have separate articles for different subspecies on Wiktionary unless the common name is different. The primary sense of "buffalo" is the Syncerus caffer. On English Wiktionary, we put different senses of the same word all on the same page, but with a different translation section for each sense. The section where I entered tábąąh ayání is for the Syncerus caffer. It probably should be made more clear which is meant (which we do with a gloss at the beginning of the translation section). —Stephen 20:34, 21 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)
Oh, ok, that's cool then. As for the "Jádí"-creatures, I need to check with Anthony. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 20:45, 21 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)
On second thought, Syncerus caffer might not be the best choice for this. That’s the African buffalo, which usually lives in swampy areas and wetlands, but it can be found in forests, too. Perhaps en:Bubalus bubalis, the domesticated Asian water buffalo, would be a better match. —Stephen 20:57, 21 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)
yes, I looked at both, and the "Water buffalo" seems to be largely domesticated. For domesticated animals, "béégashii" (cattle) is usually the choice... so I'm considering "Tábąąh béégashii" for that one. It's quite a brain-raking... (but fun!) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 21:15, 21 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)

Success + screw-up

So Anthony checked up on my "Jádí"-creations, they're ok.

On the other hand, I corrected a mess-up of my own: At least the porpoise, the beluga, and the narwhal need to be "deep water" (tééh) instead of just "water" (tó). Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 03:57, 23 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)

tééh hóyáanii, etc., sounds good to me! But what about Shádiʼááhdę́ę́ʼ tó hóyáanii? Is tó good because it’s a river? —Stephen 06:38, 23 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)
That's my reasoning for now... I stared at it for a few minutes and decided to keep it... (then again, "tééh" is also used metaphorically for zebra and hyena...) "I'll tell you tomorrow" (< Navajo joke) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 08:44, 23 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)

skills

...so... could you slap the nv-1 template on your userpage, or where do you get these skills from? I'm beginning to suspect you know more Navajo than you acknowledge. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 17:32, 25 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)

They are weaker than yours. I would love to spend a couple of years at Diné College if I could ever find the time and wherewithal. That’s the only place that I know of to learn Navajo as a second language.
Another question. I have heard dah halzhin used for second (part of a minute), but dah alzhin seems to be used for minute. Are those just dialect differences or is dah halzhin really correct? —Stephen 18:06, 25 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)
I only know "dah alzhin".
And actually, ASU has a class this semester, NAU (Flagstaff) teaches Navajo, as do the University of Utah, the University of New Mexico, and some school in Durango (can't remember the name).
By the way, I think I'm about to wrap up my frenzy over the animal-pages, once I'm done with hose left in my sandbox... listing every subspecies on earth seems hardly within the scope of this wiki. Besides, the phrases get longer and longer the more specific it has to be. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 18:23, 25 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)
It looks like halzhin is simply dialect, or possibly just an individual variation.
I can imagine that a course at ASU or other university probably would only amount to an introduction. Navajo may be the most difficult of all languages for English-speakers to learn, and a good course probably requires immersion in it for at least a couple of years. Immersion works well for German in only three months, Russian takes nine months, but I believe Navajo would take considerably longer. —Stephen 18:55, 25 Ghąąjį 2009 (UTC)

thx

Thanks for the link to that grammar-paper. I'll definitely take a look at it. I was occupied with my MFA-review this week, hence my absence from nv-wiki. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 03:51, 8 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

Central notice disabled

I took out the fundraiser-notice. It's annoying, and at this point, we get too few hits for it to have any impact. I would assume the 3 most active editors (you, me, Anthony) have taken note of it by now. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 03:49, 15 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

Good. It was getting annoying. —Stephen 19:45, 15 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

1,000

So we are at 1,000. It's time to fill those with a bit more content now, maybe just a sentence or two as a start.

By the way, the people at English wiki have pissed me off so badly with their spy-operation called WP:NEWT that I decided to totally give it a rest over there. So if the bots don't kick in within the next days, would you do the honors for the interwiki-links? While you're there, you can read NEWT's talk page for your amusement or breakdown. The thread I started is "Magic pen (software) & Huntsville (game)". Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 07:37, 17 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

Update: I just checked. Numbo3-bot seems to be taking care of the links. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 08:14, 17 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]
Puts me in mind of a couple of characters we’ve had to put up with on Wiktionary. One actually created an entry wherein he logged grievances against admins, a list of sysop sins. Maybe we should have an article entitled Don't bite the talent. Some people forget who does the hard work and maintenance, and seem to think exerienced writers are all expendable.
By the way, I found a Navajo translation of an article that we have on English and other wikis, and am typing it up. It seems to have a number of spelling errors, and possibly it is no good at all. When I post it, check it over and, if it’s no good, delete it. Named Bee Hazʼą́ą Ił Chʼétʼaah, it will link to en:Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I almost have it ready to go. —Stephen 20:06, 18 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]
As usual, you make a lot of sense.
As for the article you "found" (Excellent! - where do you "find" stuff like that?) - I'm pretty certain the first word must be Bee Hazʼą́ą (Law), and we can categorize it under T'ááłáhági át'éego:Bee Hazʼáanii. I'll let you know about the second part. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 21:28, 18 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

the Stats are in

Statistics for October: Average article size foresee-ably took a hit, but growth for 200char+ is close to 100%. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 02:54, 20 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

Good figures. I see on List of Wikipedias that we have overtaken Wolof and are fast approaching Assyrian Neo-Aramaic and Lojban. —Stephen 17:53, 21 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]
Yepp. But the last column ("depth") suffers tremendously. I doubt the value of that formula, but I've boldly and bravely taken to writing a adding a few lines to some of the animal articles (for example Adijiłii bichį́į́h nézí). And by the way, you'll notice I've gone ahead and deleted talkpage-redirects... they're pretty much useless. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 00:46, 22 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]
I agree, talkpage redirects are useless. I saw the formula for depth but I don’t really understand it. I have a sense of what it is, but I don’t know what affects it in what way. The figure has dropped recently about 10 points. It must be some sort of calculus, which I have not studied. —Stephen 07:14, 22 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

redirects

Y'know, the searchbox is utterly useless when one cannot type diacritics. I will make "diacritic-less" redirects for articles above tub-level and put them into a category. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 02:47, 23 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

Sounds good. I think there is a way to modify search, but I have no idea how. I’ve noticed that search works in different ways in some Wikipedias. Some find only exactly what you type in, but others, such as the Russian and German Wikipedias, can find words with different case endings or conjugations than the one you type in. It’s probably something that only the developers can manipulate. —Stephen 04:57, 23 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]
Doesn't seem to work for me... I typed "padagogik" (Freudian choice?) into the search box @ German wiki, but it did not lead me to "Pädagogik", but to the search results. Well... that works on this wiki, too, but it's tedious. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 05:49, 23 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]
On the German Wikipedia I just type guter (good, masculine singular nominative, strong form), and it found, for example, gut, güter, gutem, gut, gute, gutes (upper- and lowercase).
Then I tried Padagogik, which gave me Pädagoge, Pädagogik, Musikpädagogik, pädagogischen, and so on. The Search page that it took me to, Pädagogik, indicated that I was using advanced option, whatever that means.
On English Wikipedia, they use a template at the top of their language category pages, en:Template:User language subcategory, which puts in a box that explains that the users on that page speak such and such language. I attempted to copy the template for use here, but it evokes another template within it, and that one evokes yet another. Too complex to copy. —Stephen 06:03, 23 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

{{Link FA}} activated

I activated {{Link FA}} and gave it a little black-blue-yellow-white star emblem... time to track down FA-articles on other wikis mark them as such
(see for example Łóóʼtsoh bitsiiʼ dikʼání). Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 15:16, 28 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

(Done with mammals up to "Łóóʼtsoh łibáhígíí" Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 16:21, 28 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2009 (UTC))[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

It would be great if we could get one or two of our Navajo articles listed as FA, but I don’t see how it would be possible to have it done. There is no one around doing peer reviews of Navajo articles other than us. —Stephen 21:42, 29 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]
I already listed Naabeehó bisiláołtsooí bizaad chodayoosʼįįdígíí as FA; it's across all wikis. I'm waiting for Anthony to wrap up Naabeehó, and will dig up more sources that fit his writing.
The criteria for what constitutes an FA is up to every wiki to decide. I skimmed the criteria at English, Afrikaans, German, Danish, Polish, and Hebrew wiki, and they're all slightly different. I think at the level of this wiki, as long as it is of sufficient length, has sources, possibly external links and some headers, that should be good enough. If it's really essential, I can make a project-page once we have those two listed (That would probably be Wikiibíídiya:"Feature" átʼéhígíí or Wikiibíídiya:Naaltsoos nizhónígo ályaaígíí or something like that...)... The catergory I've already made: T'ááłáhági át'éego:Naaltsoos "Feature" átʼéhígíí. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 22:37, 29 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]
That’s fantastic, nizhónígo! —Stephen 23:22, 29 Níłchʼitsʼósí 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

strange reasoning @ meta

Sigh... What *is* this? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 03:51, 7 Níłchʼitsoh 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

Well, things change rather quickly on the internet and the policies and procedures of one year can’t be compared or used as a basis for prediction in the next year. Four years ago, admins became admins and remained admins as long as they did not begin to cause problems (such as exhibiting ownership-behavior in regard to some or all entries, or getting angry and vandalizing pages). Later, upon a vote, the policy changed so that inactivity was also a reason to revoke admin privileges. Eventually, permanent adminstratorship ended for most new applicants until they could gather significant community support, although the older admins were sort of grandfathered in. By trying to use a grandfathered admin as leverage for permanent status, it’s made upper management uneasy, so they may remove the lever. It may be a long time before we attract a significant user base who can voice their support, so we just have to expect to have temporary status for the foreseeable future. —Stephen 05:27, 7 Níłchʼitsoh 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

HotCat

You can now use HotCat if you like. Preferences>Gadgets>HotCat (Siłkidígíí>Bee Naʼanishí>HotCat) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 10:50, 14 Níłchʼitsoh 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

I’ll try it. What does it do? —Stephen 11:13, 14 Níłchʼitsoh 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]
gives you (+/-) at the bottom of pages to add categories (like, at the bottom if this page) -- just click on (+), type the first letter, and pick the one you want. I can't seem to get it to work for deleting categories, though... (got it) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 11:31, 14 Níłchʼitsoh 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

Admin

They're offering until June next year... not too shabby. I suppose I'll take that deal. I hope you'll stick around even if they revoke yours based on some technical/procedural junk. I'm guessing we'll be able to lay the foundation that should've been laid 4 years ago - maybe even get the entire interface and some other gadgets implemented. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 22:14, 16 Níłchʼitsoh 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

Yes, it’s a good deal and you should take it. I’m very interested in seeing this Wikipedia work, so I intend to stick around. —Stephen 00:05, 17 Níłchʼitsoh 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]
Hi. Seb has been extended to June 15 but yours, Stephen, is set to expire. In fact it technically already did. Did you want an extension or would you like it turned off? I missed that it was going to expire or I would have pinged you sooner. Please, if you do want an extension, just make a request. For convenience this is a link to the old, expired request: [1] which has been moved to the archive m:Steward requests/Permissions/2009-12. For now, your bit has been turned off but it's easy enough to turn back on. I see no issues in the log (at a quick glance) with your adminship. Thank you for your efforts on behalf of the projects. ++Lar: t/c 15:11, 18 Níłchʼitsoh 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]
Yes, I would like an extension. I’m not sure where the request is supposed to be made, so I will tack it on to the expired request: [2]. —Stephen 17:16, 18 Níłchʼitsoh 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]
Sorry for any confusion on where to put the extension request. (and for getting busy and not popping back here to see what was what...) But I think you're sorted now. Best wishes. ++Lar: t/c 15:33, 28 Níłchʼitsoh 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

...by the way

...where did this come from? :) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 11:36, 17 Níłchʼitsoh 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

That’s from a radio announcement on KTNN 660 am. I think the program was called Focus. —Stephen 11:56, 17 Níłchʼitsoh 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]
By the way, as with Bee Hazʼą́ą Ił Chʼétʼaah I’m sure there are lots of misspellings, and both probably could use some heavy editing when you or Anthony have extra time. —Stephen 15:28, 18 Níłchʼitsoh 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]
I'll look at it, though it looks awfully good. Your work?... oh, right, you're the transcription-guy...
By the way, sorry for the trouble of getting you de-sysopped for a while with that stunt @ meta. As I mentioned before, I was trying to get permanent status for somebody here. Maybe if you had tried, your chances woulda been better; after all, you're a crat, sysop, and whatnot elsewhere. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 17:00, 18 Níłchʼitsoh 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

Seems like your admin-status is back. Are you still there? Again, I apologize for the trouble I unintentionally caused... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 21:31, 26 Níłchʼitsoh 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

I’ve been busy with family over the holidays. Yes, I’m here. It seems that I had placed my request for an extension on the wrong page and nobody saw it. I finally got it onto the correct page (I think). —Stephen 01:19, 28 Níłchʼitsoh 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

My guess...

... about -ilchįįh is here. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 14:59, 31 Níłchʼitsoh 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

"delete"

...> "kʼééʼéshchxǫǫh nisin" (see tab above / I don't think one "kills" pages as Node would have it...) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 20:04, 31 Níłchʼitsoh 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]

That definitely sounds better. —Stephen 20:13, 31 Níłchʼitsoh 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]
Oh, and, I came across the block-log... there are quite a few indeffed IPs from back in 2004-2006. Mind if I unblock them? I think whoever used them should be gone by now... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 20:35, 31 Níłchʼitsoh 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]
That’s fine. I’m surprised that there were quite a few at that time, since I have blocked so few in the six months. —Stephen 22:34, 31 Níłchʼitsoh 2009 (UTC)[haneʼ bichʼįʼ áńdeeshdlííł nisin]